JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[tigger2]

The main problem is, I suggest, that some here know Hebrew and Greek and others have to rely on wiki and other sites, and can, at best, haphazard some linguistic guesses. Probably most here would not recognize a single Hebrew character. Add to this an up-bringing in an English translation that uses the term Jehovah, where most modern translations never use this term.

Thus I for one am never sure what people mean by the term Jehovah. Is this the English translation for when the Hebrew tetraG occurs? But why do they say things like "Jesus prayed to Jehovah" when the N.T. has no Hebrew, as it was written in Greek?

It would be best if we all agreed on a linguistic model.

YHWH is the English transliteration for the tetragram. The translation is probably something close to "He will be (whatever He wants)." The translation is nothing even close to 'LORD' or 'GOD.'

So, if we wish to do what God commands over and over, we will call on, praise, and proclaim His name.

Do you think it is acceptable to make up a false translation for His name? I believe it is much more acceptable to use a transliteration of YHWH (or even JHVH) which has become a standard in English (Jehovah) or even the more modern transliteration of 'Yahweh' or 'Yehowah.'

I also believe the equally traditional English transliteration of the Messiah as 'Jesus' is totally acceptable. But the more likely transliteration of 'Yehoshua,' 'Yeshua,' is also acceptable, but more confusing to the majority of English speakers.

I find it difficult to believe that any of the many who accept the tetragram in its completely dishonest form of 'LORD' or ''GOD' would still insist on its use after learning the truth. But I also know many follow traditions no matter how scripturally dishonest.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 408 by brianbbs67]

You're certainly free to transliterate YHWH in any reasonable way you wish. Or you could honestly just use 'YHWH' as the only personal name of God in the 7000 places it is actually found in the oldest Hebrew OT manuscripts.

If you insist on disallowing the traditional English use of 'Jehovah,' I assume you will also disallow the use of 'Jesus' throughout the NT.

I don't disallow it.(but you have to realize it is a fairly modern word) As it is not definatetively defined. Jesus definitely was not his name. Any honest preacher would say so also.

What I argue is, when someone claims they know the true names. It is false on its face. Because, we don't know 100%. Example: I think Christs name was Yeshua, Joshua. Probably is, was, but I claim no authority because I have none. We just don't know. We can believe we know, but that's a delusion. If hear my Lord tell me His name or His son's, then I would know.

But you don't object to saying "Jesus." You have focused on "Jehovah," and you reject using that name for God. You are not being consistent. Either accept the current usage of "Jehovah" or "Yahveh" or whatever your particular language sets forth, as well as "Jesus" for His Son, or do not pronounce EITHER name---Jehovah OR Jesus. Then you would not be conflicting with yourself.

I am not conflicting myself. Call Him Jehovah. Thats fine. But don't say a transliteration with the vowels for Adonai inserted in the 1200s could possibly be His proper name.

About the 13th century the term "Jehovah" appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of "Yahweh" and pronounced it with the vowels of "Adonai." This resulted in the sound "Yahowah," which has a Latinized spelling of "Jehovah." The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270.

Interestingly, this fact is admitted in much Jehovah's Witness literature, such as their Aid to Bible Understanding (p. 885). This is surprising because Jehovah's Witnesses loathe the Catholic Church

Je·ho·vah
Origin

from medieval Latin Iehouah, Iehoua, from Hebrew YHWH or JHVH, the consonants of the name of God, with the inclusion of vowels taken from ῾ă��n�y ‘my lord’; see also Yahweh.
Translate jehovah to
Use over time for: Jehovah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

http://www.yhwh.com/jehovah.htm

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jehovah

Is my point clearer now?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 421 by brianbbs67]

We most certainly know what God's name is, there is zero doubt on that matter.

God's unique personal name is YHWH as revealed in scripture.

Jehovah's Witnesses have stated in this thread multiple times that while we are certain as to what God's name is (YHWH), there is no certainty about the exact pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton and that the English form Jehovah (like the form JESUS) is most certainly not the way that the Divine Name was originally pronounced. But just like you, we are happy to use a form that has been popularized in English since the 13th Century which is indeed a transliteration of the original based on the Masoretic texts.


JW

"Jehovah's Witnesses are not at all dogmatic about pronunciation"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 014#907014

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 421 by brianbbs67]


OBJECTION #6: JEHOVAH is a 13th Century invention and not the name of God at all

• There are those that claim that the form "Jehovah" is not a legitimate rendition of the Divine Name at all. They claim this based, among other things, on the fact that it is a fairly recent rendition. While this is true, it does not constitute a reason why it cannot used. Indeed the basic form of the English "Jehovah/Yehowah" is as old, if not older* than as modern English language itself.
  

  Accusing the English form JEHOVAH as being "too new" to be used is like a father rejecting his son because he didn't know the son before that child was actually born.

  
  
  In short, "JEHOVAH" is a 13th Century "invention", because English is itself a 13th Century "invention"* and as the language was born, scholars sought to put the Divine Name as revealed in scripture into that "new" language. Are such critics claiming that english speakers should have found an English form before there were any English speakers? Do those critics that deride the English transliteration JEHOVAH for its relative modernity suggest we stop pronouncing English entirely for the same reason?

[*]Early Modern English – the language used by Shakespeare – is dated from around 1500. It incorporated many Renaissance-era loans from Latin and Ancient Greek, as well as borrowings from other European languages, including French, German and Dutch. Significant pronunciation changes in this period included the ongoing Great Vowel Shift, which affected the qualities of most long vowels. Modern English proper, similar in most respects to that spoken today, was in place by the late 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English

[JehovahsWitness]

OBJECTION #7: Some 13th Century monk invented the word "JEHOVAH"

• If he did he had good scholarly reason to do so. The earliest know record of the pronunciation "Yehowah" can be traced to the Spanish Dominican friar Raymundus Martini in his Pugio, about 1278. However, this pronunciation of the Hebrew is probably based on the Masoretic vowel system¤ (The Masorites were a group of Jewish scholars that copied bible text from the 6th to the 10th centuries). So the form YEHOWAH from which we derive the English word "Jehovah" has a basis that dates back many centuries before the monk in question.
  
  

  NOTE: The modern english[/J/ was originally pronounced as a/Y/ (as in "yes"); and the /w/ originally carried the germanic pronunciation which was a /v/; so when the bible was being translated into English our modern "Jehovah" would have effectively been pronounced "Yehowah" (with the "w" being pronounced as a "v"*)

  ¤ The Leningrad Codex (The oldest complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew dated 1008/1009 CE) also used the Masoretic vowel points which allows for the pronunciation "Yehowah"
  
  * This explains why we use the Roman letters YHWH when the W should correspond to the Hebrew

Further Reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001060073#h=6
http://public.oed.com/aspects-of-englis ... -spelling/

[onewithhim]

The main problem is, I suggest, that some here know Hebrew and Greek and others have to rely on wiki and other sites, and can, at best, haphazard some linguistic guesses. Probably most here would not recognize a single Hebrew character. Add to this an up-bringing in an English translation that uses the term Jehovah, where most modern translations never use this term.

Thus I for one am never sure what people mean by the term Jehovah. Is this the English translation for when the Hebrew tetraG occurs? But why do they say things like "Jesus prayed to Jehovah" when the N.T. has no Hebrew, as it was written in Greek?

It would be best if we all agreed on a linguistic model.

Please see post #420. I would welcome your comment on that.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 419 by tigger2]

So, in the early texts of the English Bible, the name that we pronounce "David" was pronounced "Da-weed." So should we go back to pronouncing "David" as "Da-weed"?

[tam]

[Replying to post 400 by onewithhim]

I like the pronunciation 'Yehowah,' but that's just my opinion.

As for the date of the earliest of existing manuscript copies of Paul's writings (P46), I see that Comfort and Barrett give a date of "sometime after 125 [A.D.]."

I would suggest sometime shortly after 135 A.D. (the Bar Kochba revolt). See my study of the effects of the Bar Kochba revolt here:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... ians.html

I like the pronunciation "Jehovah," particularly because that is the way I've heard his name since I was a small child, even in the Baptist Church. I also like the pronunciation "Yahveh." I understand that the Jews don't pronounce "W" as "W." it would be pronounced like a "V." So saying "Yahveh" is better than saying "Yahweh" in English, like so many say, thinking it is most correct.

Yes, I do as well!

The spirit in me recognized that Name, Jahveh (pronounced as you wrote it with a 'y' instead of a 'j'), the moment I heard this name. This is the Name that my Lord has made known to me, for His Father, and so this is the Name that I must use. Yahweh is very close. And of course there is scriptural backing for JAH as being the Name of God; not only in the names of many prophets but also in HalleluJAH (Praise JAH).


Pronunciation is more important than spelling. When we call upon the Name of God, we are not spelling. We are speaking.



Yahveh/Jahveh; Yahweh - these share a similar feel and sound. Same as Jaheshua (the name of my Lord that He has made known to me) and Yeshua, Jahshua, Joshua (even Yehoshua).

('y' sound instead of a hard 'j' sound)




But "Jehovah" and "Jesus" are very different than these; not just in spelling but in pronunciation. I never felt comfortable using "Jehovah" (nor was I raised with it). But "Jesus" was familiar to me and I used that... up until I learned that this was not His name; had never been His name. He had not been given this name and He had never been called by this name. Once I learned this, I could no longer use that name. I could not knowingly apply something untrue to my Lord.

Truth is more important than tradition or familiarity. I think you will agree.




What anyone else does is between them and their Lord. I am not judging at all; just sharing as I have learned and received.

But I had to comment when I saw your comments on that Name (Yahveh) and the sound. Because this is His Name, a beautiful Name, the Name that has been made known to me.

Perhaps this is the reason you like it so much as well. Not because of tradition or because of familiar use. But because this IS His Name.




May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you, and to you all, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 400 by onewithhim]

I like the pronunciation 'Yehowah,' but that's just my opinion.

As for the date of the earliest of existing manuscript copies of Paul's writings (P46), I see that Comfort and Barrett give a date of "sometime after 125 [A.D.]."

I would suggest sometime shortly after 135 A.D. (the Bar Kochba revolt). See my study of the effects of the Bar Kochba revolt here:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... ians.html

I like the pronunciation "Jehovah," particularly because that is the way I've heard his name since I was a small child, even in the Baptist Church. I also like the pronunciation "Yahveh." I understand that the Jews don't pronounce "W" as "W." it would be pronounced like a "V." So saying "Yahveh" is better than saying "Yahweh" in English, like so many say, thinking it is most correct.

Yes, I do as well!

The spirit in me recognized that Name, Jahveh (pronounced as you wrote it with a 'y' instead of a 'j'), the moment I heard this name. This is the Name that my Lord has made known to me, for His Father, and so this is the Name that I must use. Yahweh is very close. And of course there is scriptural backing for JAH as being the Name of God; not only in the names of many prophets but also in HalleluJAH (Praise JAH).


Pronunciation is more important than spelling. When we call upon the Name of God, we are not spelling. We are speaking.



Yahveh/Jahveh; Yahweh - these share a similar feel and sound. Same as Jaheshua (the name of my Lord that He has made known to me) and Yeshua, Jahshua, Joshua (even Yehoshua).

('y' sound instead of a hard 'j' sound)




But "Jehovah" and "Jesus" are very different than these; not just in spelling but in pronunciation. I never felt comfortable using "Jehovah" (nor was I raised with it). But "Jesus" was familiar to me and I used that... up until I learned that this was not His name; had never been His name. He had not been given this name and He had never been called by this name. Once I learned this, I could no longer use that name. I could not knowingly apply something untrue to my Lord.

Truth is more important than tradition or familiarity. I think you will agree.




What anyone else does is between them and their Lord. I am not judging at all; just sharing as I have learned and received.

But I had to comment when I saw your comments on that Name (Yahveh) and the sound. Because this is His Name, a beautiful Name, the Name that has been made known to me.

Perhaps this is the reason you like it so much as well. Not because of tradition or because of familiar use. But because this IS His Name.




May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you, and to you all, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Thank you for your comments on this. "Yahveh" is very beautiful, and soothing.

I don't think it's wrong to use whatever pronunciations we are familiar with, even "Jesus" rather than "Yeshua," though either is acceptable. People certainly know exactly who is being referred to when someone says "Jesus." So, though I know that God's Son's name was not originally "Jesus," we call him that because that is a commonly understood reference to him. To 95% of the world's population you probably would have to explain who you are talking about if you said, "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua," etc.

I never cease to be amazed that people have no problem with calling Yeshua "Jesus" but they refuse to accept "Jehovah" or even "Yahveh" as God's name. Quite inconsistent, I would say. They are satisfied to call Him "God" or "Lord" which is further from the correct pronunciation than "Jehovah" or "Yahveh."

[JehovahsWitness]

"Jesus" was familiar to me and I used that... up until I learned that this was not His name; had never been His name. He had not been given this name and He had never been called by this name. Once I learned this, I could no longer use that name. I could not knowingly apply something untrue to my Lord.

• Do you think that Jesus rejects the many millions that pray in his name but pronounce is with the harder J rather than the Y sound? Do you think that Spanish speaking world have access to God because they pronouce their J's as Ys and say "Yesus" rather than "Jesus" but English speakers are barred because of how they pronouce the letter /J/?

I cannot help but think of the Pharisees straining out nats when salvation comes down to pronunciation and accents.


THE STORY OF "JAY"

[youtube][/youtube]