JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 408 by brianbbs67]

You're certainly free to transliterate YHWH in any reasonable way you wish. Or you could honestly just use 'YHWH' as the only personal name of God in the 7000 places it is actually found in the oldest Hebrew OT manuscripts.

If you insist on disallowing the traditional English use of 'Jehovah,' I assume you will also disallow the use of 'Jesus' throughout the NT.

I don't disallow it.(but you have to realize it is a fairly modern word) As it is not definatetively defined. Jesus definitely was not his name. Any honest preacher would say so also.

What I argue is, when someone claims they know the true names. It is false on its face. Because, we don't know 100%. Example: I think Christs name was Yeshua, Joshua. Probably is, was, but I claim no authority because I have none. We just don't know. We can believe we know, but that's a delusion. If hear my Lord tell me His name or His son's, then I would know.

[JehovahsWitness]

("Yehowah" is perfectly fine. In fact there are many pronunciations, depending on what language one speaks. Below are some of the pronunciations.)

Aneityum: Ihova
Arawak: Jehovah
Awabakal: Yehoa
Bangi: Yawe
Batak: Jahowa
Bube: Yehovah
Chacobo: Jahue
Chin: Zahova
Choctaw: Chihowa
Dakota: Jehowa
Dobu: Ieoba
Fijian: Jiova
French: IHVH
Hawaiian: Iehova
Hindustani: Yihovah
Ila: Yaave
Indonesian: YAHWEH
Kala Lagaw Ya: Iehovan
Mende: Yewoi
Mohawk: Yehovah
Muskogee: Cehofv
Navajo: Jiho'vah
Polish: Jehowa
Portuguese: Iahve
Tongan: Sihova
Zande: Yekova

These are just a few of the renderings of God's personal name; I have lists of over a hundred. All of the above are some of the languages spoken throughout the world, that JWs print literature in.

Excellent post by OWH showing the variety of ways the Divine Name is pronounced in modern languages. Jehovah's Witnesses are not at all dogmatic about pronunciation nor are we adverse to it being written with a "Y" (or a Y-sound which in modern english is often close to a /i/ or an /e/ sound) as is the case in many languages.

Arabic - Yoahw
Awabakal - Yehóa
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Swahili - Yehova
Venda - Yehova
Xhosa - uYehova

Zulu - uJehova
Japanese - Ehoba
Maori - Ihowa
Motu - Iehova
Malaysian Yehowa
Norway IEHOVA
Futuna - Ihova
Romanian - Iehova
Samoan - Ieova

The priority of Jehovah's Witnesses is that the Divine Name (YHWH)* not be ignored, bannished (as Catholics have done with an outright ban of pronouncing the Divine name in their official prayers and services) or minimalized. We hold that the name, however it be pronounced in whichever language be given proper prominence and honor (be "hallowed" as Jesus taught) because it is the unique, personal name of God, chosen by Him to represent his magnificent person.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


[*][/b] The four Hebrew letters YHWH (also known as The Tetragrammaton) is how the Divine name of God was represented in scripture. For more on this see post #412 below


RELATED POSTS

Does the Hebrew word YHWH translate into the English word "GOD" or "LORD"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 540#905540

[JehovahsWitness]

[*]NOTE to post 411[/u] above[/color][/url]]

SOURCE: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... vine-name/




RELATED POSTS

How many times is the Divine Name in the Torah?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 097#903097

Can YHWH be rightly refered to as "The hidden Name of God"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 349#902349

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from POST # 411 above]

Below I will address some of the common objections (in no particular order) I have come across to actually using the Divine name (in whatever language one speaks):

OBJECTION #1: It doesn't matter what you call him, God knows who He is.

• Jehovah's Witnesses are not of the school that "It doesn't matter what we call God". We hold that it certainly does matter because God's name represents Him and should be treated with the respect it deserves. It is very disrespectful not to address someone by their chosen name or to change, replace or deliberately ignore that name.
  
  As for God knowing Himself who He is, that is certainly true. Those that use this fact as an excuse to ignore or minimalize the use of God's personal name however fail to recognize that, if scriptures are to be believed, gives high priority to his Name. Not only does God's name appear in scripture many thousands of times, He explicitly states his name is how he wants to be remembered through out the generations (see Ex 3:15b) Those that dismiss the name of YHWH as unimportant are by implication dismissing the person as God as unimportant, as God has choses that name to represent Him.
  
  Is God's name considered IMPORTANT in scripture?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 791#904791

OBJECTION #2: God's name is "too holy" to pronounce

• God's name is too holy to blaspheme but it is certainly not too holy too pronouce out loud. This is a relatively new objection founded on Jewish superstition. There is certainly no basis for this in scripture. There is little doubt Jesus pronounced the Divine name as he said his mission was to make God's "name known". The name was at the very least pronounced in Temple prayers every evening up to the first century and possibly later and if later Jewish religious leaders and nominal Christians chose to refrain from pronouncing God's that was not under divine direction.

OBJECTION #3: God's name is ... GOD

• There are those that claim that God doesn't HAVE a personal name, they affirm "We just call him "God" or "Father" (or LORD). While these are all fitting titles for God the bible is quite clear that God does indeed have a personal name (YHWH) in English JEHOVAH, that is never applied to anyone but the Father

OBJECTION #4: God has MANY names

• While God has many titles, he is only presented in scripture as having ONE personal Name. Indeed the expression "nameS [plural] of God" cannot be found in scripture. A title is an expression that can be assumed or applied to other individuals. For example the word Hebrew words for "LORD" or "GOD" are applied to the gods Molech, Baal and even Satan, while JEHOVAH (YHWH) is only ever applied to the Creator and God of the Israelites (and subsequently the Christians).

RELATED POSTS

God's own name: Banned by the Pope!
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 29#p828429

Is the word "JEHOVAH /YHWH" isn't really a NAME?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p905559[/list]

TITLES: Allah, God, Elohim..
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p798613

Present day attitudes towards the Divine Name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p866215


FURTHER READING:

The Name and Titles of God in the Old Testament
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-11- ... -testament

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post # 413 above by JehovahsWitness]



OBJECTION #5: We don't know how to pronounce God's name it could be anything!

• While we cannot say with absolute certainly how the Divine Name was originally pronounced, it is inaccurate to say "it could be anything". This is because we can be sure of what that name is and how it was written (YHWH). This means that while there will indeed be a variety of pronunciations those pronounciations will remain within the confines of the known consonants provided. There is no legitimate basis for the claim that ..."God's name could be Jim, Sarah or Vladimir" since there is no way to reasonably derive Jim (JM), Sarah (SRH) or Vladimir (VLDMR) from the Tetragrammaton* (YHWH) without disregarding what we know about that name as revealed in ancient manusicripts as well as what countless experts in Hebrew linguistics have written about it for centuries. NOTE: The various pronunciations should not be considered "different names" (see related post below).
  
  RELATED POST
  If "Tim" and "Tom" are different names does that mean "Yahveh" and "Yaweh" must also be different names?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#907022
  
  Various objections to the use of the Divine Name of God (YHWH)
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 017#907017

OBJECTION #6: JEHOVAH is a 15th Century invention and not the name of God at all

• There are those that claim that the form "Jehovah" is not a legitimate rendition of the Divine Name at all. They claim this based, among other things, on the fact that it is a fairly recent rendition. While this is true, it does not constitute a reason why it cannot used. Indeed the basic form of the English "Jehovah/Yehowah" is as old, if not older than as modern English language itself¤. In short, JEHOVAH is a 15th Century "invention", because modern English is itself a 15th Century "invention"*. Do those critics that deride the English transliteration JEHOVAH for its relative modernity suggest we stop pronouncing English entirely for the same reason?

[*]Early Modern English – the language used by Shakespeare – is dated from around 1500. It incorporated many Renaissance-era loans from Latin and Ancient Greek, as well as borrowings from other European languages, including French, German and Dutch. Significant pronunciation changes in this period included the ongoing Great Vowel Shift, which affected the qualities of most long vowels. Modern English proper, similar in most respects to that spoken today, was in place by the late 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 406 by onewithhim]

More on date of earliest existing manuscript (p46) for Paul's letters:

p46 - its 'most probable date' between 175 and 225. - Griffin, Bruce W. (1996),
The Paleographical Dating of P-46

As for the Hebrew waw, it is only relatively recent that it has been pronounced with a "v" sound. It was pronounced as "w" in Biblical times.

Really? Can you give me your source for this?

"Yahveh" is much nicer than "Yahweh."

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 400 by onewithhim]

I agree the pronunciation is subjective and doesn't matter. What I argue with JW is that it is not His proper name. There are many Hebrew names for God. They are all titles. Jehovah is a RCC interpetation from the 13th century. It did not exist before then. My study clearly shows me God has many monikers. It does not show His true name. Isreal hid that long ago. Could one of the names we know be correct? Sure. But, we must admit, we don't know 100%. I think addressing Him as God or Lord is very sufficient. HEre's another possibility for the Tetra, Yehowah. I am pretty sure that us recognizing He is Lord is what matters.

But it IS his proper name. It alone is used 7,000 times in the Scriptures. Just the Tetragrammaton, "Yod-He-WaW-He."

Other "names" are either names of places or objects dedicated to him, including his name to honor him, OR titles such as "Elohim."

One name that people erroneously think is HIS personal name is, for example, "Jehovah-Nissi." It is the name of either a city or an altar devoted TO Jehovah. (I am not at home right now and don't have my research books, and I don't remember all of the names of places that have Jehovah's name incorporated into their names, but there are quite a few.)

"Elohim" is a title that is also applied to pagan gods and angels, so it is definitely not a name of God.

We conclude what most scholars have concluded, that the Tetragrammaton is the personal name of the one true God. The King James Version has conceded to leave his name where it belongs four times. One such place is PSALM 83:18:

"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

The Living Bible leaves God's name in the Scriptures hundreds of times, instead of taking it out like most versions do. One significant rendering of a verse that originally contained God's personal name is EXODUS 3:15:

"Then God said once more to Moses: 'This is what you are to say to the Israelites, "JEHOVAH the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you." This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.'"

If God says clearly that "Jehovah" (the most common pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton) is His name, and not anything else other than the Tetragrammaton, then why would we disagree? Because our clergyman says something else?



("Yehowah" is perfectly fine. In fact there are many pronunciations, depending on what language one speaks. Below are some of the pronunciations.)

Aneityum: Ihova
Arawak: Jehovah
Awabakal: Yehoa
Bangi: Yawe
Batak: Jahowa
Bube: Yehovah
Chacobo: Jahue
Chin: Zahova
Choctaw: Chihowa
Dakota: Jehowa
Dobu: Ieoba
Fijian: Jiova
French: IHVH
Hawaiian: Iehova
Hindustani: Yihovah
Ila: Yaave
Indonesian: YAHWEH
Kala Lagaw Ya: Iehovan
Mende: Yewoi
Mohawk: Yehovah
Muskogee: Cehofv
Navajo: Jiho'vah
Polish: Jehowa
Portuguese: Iahve
Tongan: Sihova
Zande: Yekova

These are just a few of the renderings of God's personal name; I have lists of over a hundred. All of the above are some of the languages spoken throughout the world, that JWs print literature in.

Did you not see that Jehovah is a 13th century RCC invention and did not exist prior? Or do you ignore it as it does not fit your theology? Just wondering...

How can you say that "Jehovah" is a 13th century invention when the King James translators originally rendered the Tetragrammaton as "IEHOVAH"?---NO "J." THE KJV WAS TRANSLATED IN THE 17TH CENTURY (1611).

And why does it matter so much to you? Are you also going to object to us calling God's Son's name "Jesus"? "Jesus" wasn't the original pronunciation! Not even close!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 408 by brianbbs67]

You're certainly free to transliterate YHWH in any reasonable way you wish. Or you could honestly just use 'YHWH' as the only personal name of God in the 7000 places it is actually found in the oldest Hebrew OT manuscripts.

If you insist on disallowing the traditional English use of 'Jehovah,' I assume you will also disallow the use of 'Jesus' throughout the NT.

I don't disallow it.(but you have to realize it is a fairly modern word) As it is not definatetively defined. Jesus definitely was not his name. Any honest preacher would say so also.

What I argue is, when someone claims they know the true names. It is false on its face. Because, we don't know 100%. Example: I think Christs name was Yeshua, Joshua. Probably is, was, but I claim no authority because I have none. We just don't know. We can believe we know, but that's a delusion. If hear my Lord tell me His name or His son's, then I would know.

But you don't object to saying "Jesus." You have focused on "Jehovah," and you reject using that name for God. You are not being consistent. Either accept the current usage of "Jehovah" or "Yahveh" or whatever your particular language sets forth, as well as "Jesus" for His Son, or do not pronounce EITHER name---Jehovah OR Jesus. Then you would not be conflicting with yourself.

[liamconnor]

The main problem is, I suggest, that some here know Hebrew and Greek and others have to rely on wiki and other sites, and can, at best, haphazard some linguistic guesses. Probably most here would not recognize a single Hebrew character. Add to this an up-bringing in an English translation that uses the term Jehovah, where most modern translations never use this term.

Thus I for one am never sure what people mean by the term Jehovah. Is this the English translation for when the Hebrew tetraG occurs? But why do they say things like "Jesus prayed to Jehovah" when the N.T. has no Hebrew, as it was written in Greek?

It would be best if we all agreed on a linguistic model.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 406 by onewithhim]

More on date of earliest existing manuscript (p46) for Paul's letters:

p46 - its 'most probable date' between 175 and 225. - Griffin, Bruce W. (1996),
The Paleographical Dating of P-46

As for the Hebrew waw, it is only relatively recent that it has been pronounced with a "v" sound. It was pronounced as "w" in Biblical times.

Really? Can you give me your source for this?

"Yahveh" is much nicer than "Yahweh."

onewithhim:

Waw:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14651-vav

http://www.lebtahor.com/Hebrew/waw.htm

http://biblescripture.net/Hebrew.html