Partial Universalism?

[liamconnor]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

[JP Cusick]

[Replying to JP Cusick]
OK, I accept that to be what you believe.

How then does it matter what you or I believe at present?

In the present it matters far more in what we do and how we live rather than what we might believe.

As the famous saying goes - what does it matter to know everything when one does not have love or the feelings of charity for other people, see 1 Corinthians 13:1-8

People put far to much importance on belief, when belief is far easier then to actually do, which is why hypocrisy is so irritating because many people know but very few do it.

[Monta]

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Sounds like a timbler of muddy water to me.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]

liamconner you have provided one of the few intellectually honest interpretations of Rom 11 I've seen online, and I've been cruising theology message boards for well over 20 years. Rom 11 is by far imo Paul's most glaringly universalist writing in the NT. He presents us with both the concepts that [1] there exists in time two distinct classes (saved and unsaved) of people, and simultaneously [2] the amazing notion that despite this, in eternity God will save not only all Israel (v. 26) but all the world (vv. 15, 32).

My traditional brethren perform a great variety of interpretive convolutions in order to silence Paul in this book. You've shined the light that it actually contains in your post. Kudos.

I'm convinced your hope that all will be saved will be a reality.

[onewithhim]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

No. He explains in further letters that the natural Jews have been replaced as a special nation by the Christian congregation---all those believing in Christ.

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:14-16, NASB)

He clearly designates the "Israel of God" to be those who walk by the rule of "boasting" in the cross of Christ. He goes on to say: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:28,29) It is only the Christians who make up the Israel of God. Being a natural Jew no longer means anything. Isn't that what he says above? Of course there are many natural Jews that do believe in Jesus, from the time of Jesus to now. But it is their acceptance of Jesus that makes them God's special people.

Peter said to a group of Christians: "You are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the One that called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

[onewithhim]

I meant that we can understand that this is no free ride.

I can not imagine anyone viewing this life as a free ride as everyone pays dearly just to live in this world.

But for the next life (after death) then that is a free-entry as the price was already paid in full by Jesus on the cross.

Not even one (1) sinful sheep gets left out or lost.

Romans 14:11 " ... every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. "

Then it is salvation for every person ~ on earth as it is in Heaven.

Then exactly who are the "wicked" and the ones that will be destroyed when Christ comes at Armageddon?

"Evildoers will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more." (Psalm 37:9,10) "Those being blessed by him will possess the earth, but those upon whom evil is called by him will be cut off." (Psalm 37:22)

"As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:22)


"It is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength..." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)


Who are these, if everyone is saved?



.

[onewithhim]

5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hope that helps.

I was not asking nor seeking any "help" and it troubles me if you might view your self as a teacher here and myself (or others) as being students or subordinates - because that is not so.

Abraham was righteous, so Jesus did not die for the righteous, see Romans 5:6-10

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out. FYI.

Can we talk about that spurious understanding after you have answered my question in my previous post, above?

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 12 by BusB]


BusB,


I think you expressed yourself very well Bus. I do think you are right to mention the Abrahamic covenant because the Abrahamic covenent, the Mosaic covenant and the covenants Paul alludes to are all related.

JW

Thank you for saying so.

I remember back some 50 years or so ago when I first began seriously trying to understand what the Bible really was saying to us. I used to pick up my Bible and when reading I could see immediately why the religions of Christendom were saying it said what they thought it did. It at first appeared that way to me, too. I didn't know about or understand anything about paradigms back then. But I knew Jehovah's Witnesses believed differently than the common teachings found in Christendom and I wanted to understand how they could possibly see it the way they saw it. And so even without understanding paradigms I began learning to break free of belief long enough to read the scripture with no preconceived idea as to what it should be telling me. And to my surprise I found that with an empty and open mind I was able to see that the scripture actually spoke something different than what I had been conditioned to look for.

I remember what a struggle that was to rid my mind of bias so that mind mind was free to be able to really see. But as I said, I did not know anything about paradigms or paradigm shifting back then. Yet after sufficient effort I found myself able to shift back and forth between Christendoms paradigm and the paradigm of Jehovah's Witnesses. And I did that shifting over and over with each verse until I was sure that I saw which paradigm was actually the correct paradigm, and then some shifting back and forth for a while afterward just to make sure I was not fooling myself.

Since that time i have had academic education helping me to better understand how the mind functions and the various techniques to assist the minds ability to evaluate things. That turned out to be very useful to me when I began running into a greater number of differing paradigms regarding the scriptures.

The words of David when he expressed his deep love for meditating in God's Law well describe how I feel about meditating in the Bible. I have complete faith in the scriptures and in the power of Jehovah and his Christ. And seeing what I see going on all around me I am eternally grateful that I was permitted that faith. If the entire world would refuse me, I have all that I really need in Jehovah by means of my Lord Jesus. I am now immune to human rejection.

That is beautiful, BusB. I have done as you have done. I couldn't have described my experience any better. It was extremely difficult to undo the brainwashing I had undergone in the churches of Christendom! Especially the doctrine of the immortal soul and all that was taught around that. I am so thankful that I have broken free from all that falsehood and can see what the truth really is. It took a lot of study and research, prayer, and determination to find the real answers.

I find real peace, also, in being alone with my God, Jehovah. I am still battling with the feelings I have when being rejected. I hope it won't matter to me any more.


.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 35 by onewithhim]

Some of the convolutions in interpretation have found their way into this thread, as they do in any discussion of Paul and universalism:
“Paul wasn’t speaking about literally all of Israel, but of spiritual Israel or those of faith.�…“You’re not considering context in before and after passages.�…“The Bible clearly states the wicked will be destroyed, it follows that Paul can’t possibly mean “all Israel� since some are destroyed.�

One of the greatest proofs of truth found in interpretation comes when the propositions used actually resolve tensions. Tensions indicate falsehoods. Examples;

1. The Annihilationist reads 2Thes 1:6-9:6 “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power� and determines the righteous are saved and the unrighteous annihilated.
TENSION: Annihilation is true. Since Bible states some are destroyed, Universalism (all saved) and Eternal Hell (sinners suffer consciously and eternally in hellfire) are wrong.

The Eternal Hell believer responds: “Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
TENSION: Bible says God punishes for eternity, therefore Annihilationism is wrong.

The Universalist responds: “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.� (1Cor 15:21-22)
TENSION: Bible states all saved; Paul compares all who die spiritually [literally all humans] and unites that “all� with a contextually identical “all� saved. Thus, Annihilation and Eternal Hell doctrine are wrong because God saves all.

I presented the evidence below in another thread recently that both the eternal hell and Annihilationist doctrines are logically untenable, that only Universalism is logical from a certain perspective:

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Informed by God that He was going to Sodom to investigate and, if necessary, destroy the evil city, Abraham quickly struck up a conversation with his Creator. His nephew Lot and family lived there, and Abraham doubtless had concerns about his kin being destroyed with all others in the city. Thus he began his famous conversation with God on the road to Sodom in Gen 18 by Abraham's query in v. 23, “….’Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?’�

Beginning here and running to the end of this chapter, God establishes here not only an inviolable principle concerning the perfection of His justice, but also the first of His twofold framework of the process of salvation so fundamentally and harmoniously woven into both testaments of the Bible it’s hard to see how its significance has been overlooked. This principle is elaborated in vv. 24-25, where Abraham asks:

"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from Thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from Thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

The well known conversation then continues, ending with God’s promise to not destroy Sodom if even only a few righteous were found there.

It seems reasonable to claim that one supervising attribute of God governs all His others: perfection. We might properly assert that God is just, loving, merciful, faithful, etc., but if He is imperfect in any of these, He is not God as we understand Him to have revealed Himself in Scripture. Abraham, it seems, recognized this truth when he exclaimed, “Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and wicked are treated alike….Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?� Abraham recognized that for God to destroy even an iota of good was an unthinkable abomination, a wholly illogical and improper idea—a violation of His perfection. In the exchange, then, this spiritual rule is established:

God will not destroy a whole in which some good exists.

This principle sets the stage for understanding the allegorical structure God uses in Scripture for His plan of the salvation and restoration of all. Multiple passages in the Bible are structured in this “one and many� organization. In the material realm the body is a single entity composed of an estimated 32 trillion cells. The principle elaborated in metaphor in Genesis 18 is a division not of matter, but of value. Thus, God uses the “one and many� convention to highlight a form of spiritual mechanics, reducing the value elements within individuals to good and bad, or, more technically, true and false. From this fundamental concept, goats and sheep (Mat 25), wheat and tares (Mat 13), good branches and bad (Jn 15) and similar patterns in multiple verses are all similar metaphors that build on the Genesis 18 principle.

Both the doctrines of eternal hell and Annihilationism violate God’s perfection and cannot be true.

In the concept of eternal hell God has removed from Himself for all eternity whole individuals in whom certainly some good exists. (The nature of falsity or evil logically renders the notion of a wholly false person impossible.)

Annihilationism is also incoherent as it has God allowing death of body and spirit to occur in countless humans in whom, again, some good is certainly present--violating the perfection of His promise to not destroy a whole in which good exists.

Only Universalism—in which God destroys only the false within the soul (death) while causing that destroyed value to be restored (resurrection) to a true state, thus restoring every soul to perfection—does not violate the perfection of His justice.
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This challenge has been issued on a few other boards. To date no serious refutations have been mounted.

Moving from Gen 18 to multiple other passages in both Testaments, an organized allegorical system exists in Scripture by which virtually all tensions presented by the Annihilation and eternal hell doctrines can be adequately resolved. Though this claim would, due to the nature of laying out the basis for this allegorical structure, require considerable exposition to substantiate in the message board venue, I’m willing to discuss if interest exists.

[liamconnor]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

No. He explains in further letters that the natural Jews have been replaced as a special nation by the Christian congregation---all those believing in Christ.

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:14-16, NASB)

He clearly designates the "Israel of God" to be those who walk by the rule of "boasting" in the cross of Christ. He goes on to say: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:28,29) It is only the Christians who make up the Israel of God. Being a natural Jew no longer means anything. Isn't that what he says above? Of course there are many natural Jews that do believe in Jesus, from the time of Jesus to now. But it is their acceptance of Jesus that makes them God's special people.

Peter said to a group of Christians: "You are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the One that called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

This is what we call "proof texting": isolating sentences to prove one's point.

How about an exegesis of the passage in question? First year students in biblical studies are taught to read a passage and not impose upon a passage.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 38 by Anomaly]

We have discussed the subject of everlasting destruction and the "fire" prepared for the devil and his angels quite a bit. It's too bad you missed that interesting exchange of views. A perusal of the threads entitled "Hell" and "Is hell eternal" will give people a good idea of what the fire prepared for the devil and his angels is all about. This "fire" is symbolic language for complete destruction, as a fire will totally engulf and destroy whatever it comes in contact with. The annihilationist comes out on top in this argument.

BTW, how can you say that destruction/annihilation is not a punishment? Isn't going to sleep, as it were, forever, a pretty dire punishment? Is there really a worse one? Your reasoning is odd.