Partial Universalism?

[liamconnor]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

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liamconner wrote:

As I read the full passage, I find it far more complicated than this.

Paul does make a distinction between spiritual and ethnic Israel.

Paul makes that distinction only to to the extent of meaning that the ethnic Israel is being used to fill the tribes of spiritual Israel [which is the true Israel of God] even as are all nations. But Paul does not believe that God is going to show ethnic Israel's peoples in their entirety any greater preference than the other peoples and nations of this earth when it comes to filling the tribes of spiritual Israel. Any individual mater not what ethnic group they are part of must have a faith like that of Abraham if they would be a part of God's true Israel. I will speak more about this as I proceed on.

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Rom 11:1 NAS)

Here he points out that the elect still includes Jews, as Paul himself is a Jew.

Actually, when weighed against the greater context before and after that verse, we find that Paul's thought is related to the call he presented in chapter 10 for preachers on behalf of his fleshly brothers with whom he shared ethnic root. Everything he proceeds onto say in chapter 11 is for the purpose of reshaping the thinking of his gentile Christian audience. Those gentile Christians would be those preachers carrying with them the mercy which was showed them and showing appreciation for that mercy by sharing that mercy back with his as yet unbelieving fleshly Israelite brothers. In that way all God's Israel would be saved. Not all ethnic Israel, but all God's true Israel:

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now we need to discuss what Paul meant at Romans 9:6-8. First off let us note that Paul does not say that this applies only temporarily while the gentiles are being harvested. No, but he is laying out evidence for us (being as what he is saying is verifiable in the Scriptures) that those of the flesh and blood Israel whom God was moved to destroy for disobedience, as well as many of those individuals claiming right by birth heritage whom for wickedness God did cast off, though they appear to be Israel those particular ones are not really Israel. Rather than natural birth being the determining factor, it is the being children of the promise that determines who the true nation of Israel is.

Of course that seems a bit confusing until we come to understand the promises better. At first we look at that and have difficulty seeing the difference.

Paul's reasoning is that the things God gave to Abraham and to his offspring (literally, and to your seed) was by the oath (or, promise) that God made to Abraham. It is important that we note that God gave his oath to Abraham and to Abraham's seed because of Abraham's faithfulness, on account of the fact that Abraham listened to my voice and continued to keep my requirements, my commands, my statutes, and my laws. <(Genesis 26:5) Realizing that It was Abraham's faithfulness in keeping God's requirements, God's commands, God's statutes, and God's laws, we can better relate to what Paul tells us in Galatians chapter 3 and we can understand that this free ride. It is a free gift being as there is nothing anyone could have ever offered God to purchase it. Indeed Christ had to purchase it for us with his life. Bit it certainly is not an invitation to a free ride. We must have faith like that of Abraham and our showing of that faith begins by exercising our faith in God's precious gift of Christ.

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I meant that we can understand that this is no free ride.

I apologize for for the messed up wording.

[marco]

Paul is here speaking of "spiritual" Israel*. As a body or a group "all Israel" will indeed be saved. He is not however speaking of individual Jews** (whether spiritual or physical descendants of Abraham) whose future will be dependent on their continued obedience.

There is no indication that Paul is referring to some spiritual Israel. He speaks clearly of erring individuals; he mentions the grafting of the cut branch back to its original tree.
He accepts the division will be healed, for present enemies are "beloved" and will be saved. When he uses the pronoun "them" he is indeed speaking of all "cut off" individuals. That this is rather shocking news, Paul accepts and adds in explanation: "For who hath known the mind of the Lord?"

Any other reading is far-fetched.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by BusB]


BusB,


I think you expressed yourself very well Bus. I do think you are right to mention the Abrahamic covenant because the Abrahamic covenent, the Mosaic covenant and the covenants Paul alludes to are all related.

JW

[JP Cusick]

I meant that we can understand that this is no free ride.

I can not imagine anyone viewing this life as a free ride as everyone pays dearly just to live in this world.

But for the next life (after death) then that is a free-entry as the price was already paid in full by Jesus on the cross.

Not even one (1) sinful sheep gets left out or lost.

Romans 14:11 " ... every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. "

Then it is salvation for every person ~ on earth as it is in Heaven.

[Left Site]

I meant that we can understand that this is no free ride.

I can not imagine anyone viewing this life as a free ride as everyone pays dearly just to live in this world.

But for the next life (after death) then that is a free-entry as the price was already paid in full by Jesus on the cross.

Not even one (1) sinful sheep gets left out or lost.

Romans 14:11 " ... every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. "

Then it is salvation for every person ~ on earth as it is in Heaven.

Your objection is duly noted.

But some do think that salvation is a free ride. My point was not about this life being or not being a free ride. But salvation.

As I said, there is absolutely nothing that even Abraham could have given God as a purchase price for promise of salvation. Therefore it had to be given to Abraham free of charge and that based upon an advance accrediting of the ransom by which Jesus would purchase it for us.

But even for Abraham it was no free ride:

Genesis 26:2 And Jehovah appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt. Dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee. For unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father.
4 And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That promised land was but a figure of the paradise earth to come. It takes the same thing to get into the paradise earth to come as was required of those Israelites to get into the promised land. And just as many perished in the unfriendly desert and were never allowed to see that promised land, so to many will perish in the unfriendly desert like spiritual condition of this present earth.

Ponder those scriptures you think support your ideas a bit deeper against the context of scripture and look for the prophetic pictures as well.

It also helps to research the various limitations of that Greek word, "pas." You will find that the Greek "pas" cannot be understood to always mean "all" in too broad a sense.

Hope that helps.

[JP Cusick]

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hope that helps.

I was not asking nor seeking any "help" and it troubles me if you might view your self as a teacher here and myself (or others) as being students or subordinates - because that is not so.

Abraham was righteous, so Jesus did not die for the righteous, see Romans 5:6-10

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out. FYI.

[Left Site]

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hope that helps.

I was not asking nor seeking any "help" and it troubles me if you might view your self as a teacher here and myself (or others) as being students or subordinates - because that is not so.

Abraham was righteous, so Jesus did not die for the righteous, see Romans 5:6-10

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out. FYI.

Well it seems that I offend you and that is certainly not my aim or desire, so I will let it go with this comment.

Abraham was attributed a righteous status on the basis of his working faith. That was because the ransom atones the spiritual death brought by sin clear back to the beginning of the world.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 12 by BusB]


BusB,


I think you expressed yourself very well Bus. I do think you are right to mention the Abrahamic covenant because the Abrahamic covenent, the Mosaic covenant and the covenants Paul alludes to are all related.

JW

Thank you for saying so.

I remember back some 50 years or so ago when I first began seriously trying to understand what the Bible really was saying to us. I used to pick up my Bible and when reading I could see immediately why the religions of Christendom were saying it said what they thought it did. It at first appeared that way to me, too. I didn't know about or understand anything about paradigms back then. But I knew Jehovah's Witnesses believed differently than the common teachings found in Christendom and I wanted to understand how they could possibly see it the way they saw it. And so even without understanding paradigms I began learning to break free of belief long enough to read the scripture with no preconceived idea as to what it should be telling me. And to my surprise I found that with an empty and open mind I was able to see that the scripture actually spoke something different than what I had been conditioned to look for.

I remember what a struggle that was to rid my mind of bias so that mind mind was free to be able to really see. But as I said, I did not know anything about paradigms or paradigm shifting back then. Yet after sufficient effort I found myself able to shift back and forth between Christendoms paradigm and the paradigm of Jehovah's Witnesses. And I did that shifting over and over with each verse until I was sure that I saw which paradigm was actually the correct paradigm, and then some shifting back and forth for a while afterward just to make sure I was not fooling myself.

Since that time i have had academic education helping me to better understand how the mind functions and the various techniques to assist the minds ability to evaluate things. That turned out to be very useful to me when I began running into a greater number of differing paradigms regarding the scriptures.

The words of David when he expressed his deep love for meditating in God's Law well describe how I feel about meditating in the Bible. I have complete faith in the scriptures and in the power of Jehovah and his Christ. And seeing what I see going on all around me I am eternally grateful that I was permitted that faith. If the entire world would refuse me, I have all that I really need in Jehovah by means of my Lord Jesus. I am now immune to human rejection.

[JP Cusick]

Abraham was righteous, so Jesus did not die for the righteous, see Romans 5:6-10

Jesus paid the price in full for all sinners, and not even one (1) sinful sheep will be lost or left out. FYI.

Abraham was attributed a righteous status on the basis of his working faith. That was because the ransom atones the spiritual death brought by sin clear back to the beginning of the world.

That is just circumventing what I said - that Jesus died for the redemption of sinners and not for the righteous.

Based on that alone there is universal salvation for all of humanity, and yet there is so much more in the Bible that tells us that every person gets saved in due time.