Such a small sacrifice...

[Willum]

Mithrae quoted this popular NT drama...

Seems to me he and his immediate followers answered quite clearly what kind of love leads to salvation:

Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,� he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?�

18 “Why do you call me good?�Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’�

20“Teacher,� he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.�

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,�he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�


Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Assuming it is true, selling all your property and possessions doesn't seem like such a big sacrifice for the Kingdom of Heaven, does it? How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

[Tcg]

…

… Then come, follow me.�…

…How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

Unfortunately Jesus is not on earth at the moment, so I don’t think that is possible right now.

Really …? That's not what I learned in Sunday school.



Jesus is watching over us, and he KNOWS if you haven't sold your clothes and bought a sword (or maybe an AK47 would do these days).

Just as we have seen that "everything" doesn't really mean "everything", perhaps "always" doesn't really mean "always." There are so many things that Jesus said, but of course didn't really mean.


Tcg

[amortalman]

Mithrae quoted this popular NT drama...

Seems to me he and his immediate followers answered quite clearly what kind of love leads to salvation:

Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,� he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?�

18 “Why do you call me good?�Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’�

20“Teacher,� he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.�

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,�he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�


Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Assuming it is true, selling all your property and possessions doesn't seem like such a big sacrifice for the Kingdom of Heaven, does it? How many believers on the site follow Jesus' guidance?

On this site? I don't know, but I have know a handful who have done just that - sold all they had and served in distant lands for many years. Does that mean that had they not done that they would not attain salvation? If they're sure they're called by Jesus then refusing him would be tantamont to rejecting his offer of salvation. It seems that the biblical Jesus is much more strict than sweet and gentle picture you get of him from modern Christian beliefs. Did not the scriptures say that narrow is the gate that leads to life and few there be who find it?

I personally don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, and there are many solid reasons from the BIble not to. The passage quoted above (and many more for that matter) is often used by unbelievers to make Christianity appear unreasonable and rediculous. It should not. I think this comes from a lack of Biblical teaching and any good Bible student can explain it. I will attempt to from the perspective

[Mithrae]

Martha the hostess may well have been married to Simon the Pharisee, with Lazarus a penniless beggar who died and was sent back, and Mary a 'sinful woman' who anointed Jesus to Simon's disdain. Martha, we are told, was not very attentive to Jesus' words, while Mary and Lazarus apparently received them with joy.

Regardless, this argument that because some of Jesus' acquaintances did not obey his words - or more correctly, because the stories recorded mention only a point in their lives when they perhaps had not YET fully obeyed - that means that disobedience is appropriate.... Not exactly a convincing argument, in my opinion.

There is no disobedience here; just some misunderstanding I think. Christ also said to give to those who ask of you and to not turn away from someone who wants to borrow from you (Luke writes that as "lend to people without expecting any repayment").

Sure, if you've got a shirt and someone wants it, give them your coat also. That's not a command to own a house, car and six figure bank account, is it? We'd never get a house and car if we actually obeyed the command of giving to everyone as they ask! Jesus set the example of putting a thief in charge of the group's money bag (John 12:6). These seem to be just more commands which virtually all Christians quietly ignore whenever they think it's inconvenient or 'impractical.'

(And Martha was the sister of Simon the Pharisee - aka - Lazarus; also the sister of Mary; and it was their home that Christ had been welcomed into)

John names the sisters Mary and Martha and their brother Lazarus who died and was brought back, but instead of inspiring belief became the subject of a plot to kill him again. Luke also tells us about the sisters Mary and Martha, and has Jesus telling the story of someone called Lazarus who died and was asked to be sent back, with Abraham insisted that even sending him back would not inspire belief. Sounds like the same guy, doesn't it? That Lazarus was a penniless beggar, desperate even for the scraps falling from a rich man's table. If he had been the homeowner Simon the Pharisee (an assumption for which the only imaginable basis I know of is the meagre coincidence that both are said to have suffered skin afflictions at some point), then clearly by the time he died and went to Abraham's side he had already given up his home in obedience to Jesus' teaching. Far more likely, the two men had different names because they were different people, and Martha was more interested in her role as hostess than in Jesus' teaching because she was married to the homeowner.

But as I said, it hardly matters either way. They were friends of Jesus and beloved by him, but according to Luke Jesus said in no uncertain terms that "those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples" (14:33). If - in the fragmentary glimpses we catch of them - Martha or Zaccheus or anyone else had not yet given up everything, all you can conclude is that at the time they were not yet fully obeying Jesus.

As suggested in the OP, the Acts model of frugal communal living without personal possessions is the most worldly lifestyle followers of Jesus should aspire to; which requires a slightly strained interpretation of some gospel passages, but at least has some merit as one man's portrayal of the teaching and example of the apostles. Anything more materialistic than the Acts model cannot be justified as an alternative interpretation, it's just brazenly ignoring the teaching and example of both Jesus and the apostles. Which is what virtually all Christians do.

So what is the argument being made here; that we DON'T want to be perfect, that Christians should just try to scrape by with a bare minimum commitment and no real obedience? Does that make sense?

Not at all. That is not an argument that I have presented.

Matthew's Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Don't you want to be perfect?

Mark's Jesus - to an enquirer smart enough to realize that the bare minimum commands of not actively hurting one another might not be good enough for eternal life - confirmed what was still lacking: "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Is that price too high?

[Mithrae]

Is that price too high?

I notice that Willum hasn't answered my question yet, nor have any other non-Christians:

If you learned tomorrow that there was a let's say 30% chance that Jesus is Christ, would you obey his commands? Especially knowing that even non-Christians such as Gandhi, Siddhartha, Crates of Thebes and so on have found immense fulfillment in the rejection of material possessions?

I don't keep posting these teachings of Jesus just because they're a good "gotcha" moment against our Christian members - though they are that - but also because there may well be something important there (even if Jesus wasn't 100% on the money with all the details) and because the immeasurable harm that materialism has done and is doing to our planet and to our wellbeing and relationships with one another as human beings are becoming increasingly obvious every decade.

Even if we as non-Christians don't actually do as the bible says, even we suppose that Jesus' prescription was a little extreme, it's worth seriously considering how much we can improve ourselves both ethically and psychologically by taking a step or three in a biblical direction, on this issue.

[Zzyzx]

.

If you learned tomorrow that there was a let's say 30% chance that Jesus is Christ, would you obey his commands?

Sure, I would obey whatever commands / commandments I felt like – and ignore the rest just like Christians – who show how it is done -- cherry pick

Especially knowing that even non-Christians such as Gandhi, Siddhartha, Crates of Thebes and so on have found immense fulfillment in the rejection of material possessions?

My decisions are not based upon what is done by celebrities, preachers, potentates, or politicians.

Would I give up my home in the country? Heck no. Would I donate significant time, energy, and resources to helping provide food for the needy? Yes – already do a lot in that direction – without any need for prompting by religion.

I don't keep posting these teachings of Jesus just because they're a good "gotcha" moment against our Christian members - though they are that - but also because there may well be something important there (even if Jesus wasn't 100% on the money with all the details) and because the immeasurable harm that materialism has done and is doing to our planet and to our wellbeing and relationships with one another as human beings are becoming increasingly obvious every decade.

Note that materialism is defined as PREOCCUPATION with material objects

Materialism definition, preoccupation with or emphasis on material objects, comforts, and considerations, with a disinterest in or rejection of spiritual, intellectual, or cultural values. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/materialism

Preoccupation means: to be the main thought in someone's mind, causing other things to be forgotten: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... /preoccupy

Thus, one can have a balanced attitude toward possessions without being consumed by them – and without being greedy.

Even if we as non-Christians don't actually do as the bible says, even we suppose that Jesus' prescription was a little extreme, it's worth seriously considering how much we can improve ourselves both ethically and psychologically by taking a step or three in a biblical direction, on this issue.

Improving ourselves ethically and psychologically might well be better done by consulting sources more ethical and more psychologically healthy than the Bible.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 14 by Zzyzx]

Sure, I would obey whatever commands / commandments I felt like – and ignore the rest just like Christians – who show how it is done -- cherry pick

You know I was a knife's edge from reporting the post, instead I will simply recriminate you:

Christians do not ignore or cherry pick any Commandments.

Something like Penn Gillette said, Christian kill and rape and molest children as much as they like, they simply ask forgiveness for any sins they do, later, when they feel bad about it.

How dare you say they ignore them!

[Mithrae]

Thus, one can have a balanced attitude toward possessions without being consumed by them – and without being greedy.

Even if we as non-Christians don't actually do as the bible says, even we suppose that Jesus' prescription was a little extreme, it's worth seriously considering how much we can improve ourselves both ethically and psychologically by taking a step or three in a biblical direction, on this issue.

Improving ourselves ethically and psychologically might well be better done by consulting sources more ethical and more psychologically healthy than the Bible.

Fight Club for example is very inspirational, to a point But what gets me is that I'm genuinely hard-pressed to think of any better example to follow than Gandhi's, and he too advocated relinquishing personal possessions.

[youtube][/youtube]

You're right that we can (and I would say should) avoid being owned by the things that we possess: Perhaps a reasonable litmus test is that if we're upset for more than a few minutes when we're robbed by someone or something we own is damaged, anything that isn't needed for us to survive the next week, then our possessions have become more of a dependency than a convenient aid to our lives?

[Zzyzx]

.

Improving ourselves ethically and psychologically might well be better done by consulting sources more ethical and more psychologically healthy than the Bible.

I'm genuinely hard-pressed to think of any better example to follow than Gandhi's, and he too advocated relinquishing personal possessions.

By saying 'consulting sources' (plural), I avoid being saddled with extremes within any single source.

Although Gandhi offered some admirable ideas, not much of what he said applies to my life -- in this less than idealistic world.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by Mithrae]

I don't answer loaded questions; Jesus was not commanding all his disciples renounce employment and all private ownership.

For more on this point see THIS LINK for chart
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p954896

Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Jesus' words to mean to live simple modest lives, not devoting energy to getting rich, earning more money than we need or becomeing the top earners in our communities. We believe as Christians we should work in honest employment that enable us to earn enough to support ourselves and our families. We believe our lives should be centred on spiritual interests and the doing of God's will but not to the detriment of ones family.

NOTE Jehovah's Witnesses never charge a fee for preaching or teaching, all weddings, funeral services and pastoral visits are conducted free of charge. Students that attend our Bible Schools all do so free of charge. They do not charge the public for any of the books or magazines they print and visit people and conduct bible studies for free. Their website contains no commercial advertising. Our "church" buildings are mostly built by volunteer workers who work for free. We dont tithe nor are collection plates passed around during services.

They do not have a paid clergy.

JW




RELATED POSTS

Should Jesus words about abandoning "all things" be taken literally?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p908689

Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p835720

Did Jesus expect his disciples to give up absolutely everything they owned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p908161

Would the "Acts model" allow for Christian ownership of houses?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p980613

Is there proof JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the religion that put spiritual things ahead of working for money?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 85#p909585

Did Jesus command all his disciples renounce employment and all private ownership.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p980601

Should Christians pay taxes?
viewtopic.php?p=1087428#p1087428

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , MONEY & WEALTH and ... JW's FINANCES

[Tcg]

Is that price too high?

I notice that Willum hasn't answered my question yet, nor have any other non-Christians:

If you learned tomorrow that there was a let's say 30% chance that Jesus is Christ, would you obey his commands?

This sounds like a pretty tough sell to me. There are Christians who are 100% sure Jesus is the Christ and they don't do so. Gambling all that I have for 30% odds? No thanks.

I wouldn't risk ten bucks on 30% odds. It's a fool's bet.


Tcg