Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

[achilles12604]

There are some fundamental issues that Christians, who state to be believers in an all powerful God have not addressed. In addressing them the refutation of the Achilles12604 will hopefully become apparent inshaAllaah.

Beta Said:

"The reason God won't just appear and convert everybody at once has to do with balance and equilibrium of his creation. You can't turn a big ship in an instant without breaking it up completely but need to allow time to turn it. And the world being much bigger than a ship and it's occupants already in a very fragile state thanks to satan need gentle handling which takes time."

Because Beta quoted the Bible it has been assumed that Beta is a Christian.

Either way I say this to Beta, the Christians, and anyone reading this thread. The Creator of the heavens and earth, its inhabitants - those that are known to us and those that are not is all powerful.

He alone is the disposer of affairs, and the facilitator of all actions. He would not need to worry about upsetting the equilibrium of His creation. The Lord says in His noble Qur'an:

"Allaah bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshiped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. Lâ ilâh illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshiped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Aali Imran 3:18)"

God tells us several things here. One is that the angels and the people who have knowledge bear witness that there is none who deserves worship but He. The verse begins with God Himself bearing witness to this fact. This is a reminder for us and not for Him.

Furthermore He tells us that He maintains His creation in Justice and that He is All Mighty and All Wise. So Beta's analogy should not be accepted by anyone who believes in an all powerful Lord. Nor should it be uttered by anyone who believes in an all powerful Lord.

Christians state they believe that God is all powerful. So to them I say please stay away from this analogy-this idle and inaccurate speech. Proceed with the realization that God is all powerful and fear Him with a due estimation.

To proceed:

Achilles12604 said:

"Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person."

The Christians should contest this as they claim to claim that God is the Creator of everything. Achilles12604, Christians, and others reading there is textual and intellectual proof of the Creator.

From the textual proofs:

"And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. (Al-Hijr 15:26)"

"And among His Signs is this, that He created you (Adam) from dust, and then [Hawwa' (Eve) from Adam's rib, and then his offspring from the semen, and], - behold you are human beings scattered! (Ar-Rum 30:20)"

"And from His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon, but prostrate to Allaah who created them, if you truly worship Him." [Soorah Fussilat (41):37]

"Your Lord is Allaah who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then ascended upon the Throne. He causes the night to cover the day which follows with haste; and the sun, the moon and the stars are subservient and subject to His command. Certainly creation and commandment are His alone. Exalted is Allaah the Lord of all creation." [Soorah al-A'raaf (7):54]

From the intellectual proofs there is an indication to them from the speech of the Creator:

"Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators? (At-Tur 52:35)"

Man did not create himself, since before coming into this life, he did not exist; and that which is nothing cannot create anything at all. Nor was it the case that his father or mother or anyone from the creation created him. Nor did he randomly appear without a creator to bring him into existence, since for everything which comes into existence or occurs there must be one who brings it into existence or causes it to occur. The presence of all that exists in the creation and the amazing order found in it and its harmonious structure makes it impossible that it came about randomly. This is because that which would come into existence randomly and by chance is not in principle and origin something well ordered. This produces the certain conclusion that God alone is the creator, and there is no creator, nor anyone who orders and commands except Him.

So the position of Achilles12604 is fundamentally flawed because God has done something which makes his existence undeniable to a person using reason and sound intellect.

Please reflect upon this. It is an invitation to search.

We have passages much like this.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

I also happen to agree with you that God has done things that would leave no doubt in men's minds.


AND YET>>>>

Atheists still exist. So using your statement . . .

So the position of Achilles12604 is fundamentally flawed because God has done something which makes his existence undeniable to a person using reason and sound intellect.

the only conclusion we can reach is that you feel that all atheists are neither reasonable nor intelligent correct?


Yet there are non-theists on this forum who are exceptionally intelligent. Their intellects are hard to keep up with at times.

There are also non-theists who are reasonable. I have even had a couple admit that thier position was in error (not very often mind you . . . *ahem*)

So because there are people on this forum who are both intelligent and reasonable, and yet they remain non-theists, my argument is not fatally flawed (at least not in this way. 8 other ways perhaps but not this way.)

[Easyrider]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

[achilles12604]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

[Goat]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

[Easyrider]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

Wrong on all accounts. The NT itself decimates this.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Just shows the devil is really good at leading people astray.

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

Show me a resurrected Pharoah / Caesar who could stay the storm, raise the dead, heal the sick, deaf, and blind, etc., etc.?

[Goat]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

Wrong on all accounts. The NT itself decimates this.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Just shows the devil is really good at leading people astray.

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

Show me a resurrected Pharoah / Caesar who could stay the storm, raise the dead, heal the sick, deaf, and blind, etc., etc.?

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

[Easyrider]

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

I'm not playing your self-serving game. The historical accounts of the NT are all there. And they were not "scripture" at the time they were written. At the time they were simply historical accounts, inspired by God, that just happend to be canonized at a later date.

[Goat]

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

I'm not playing your self-serving game. The historical accounts of the NT are all there. And they were not "scripture" at the time they were written. At the time they were simply historical accounts, inspired by God, that just happend to be canonized at a later date.

Except they were later than you claim,and were often modified by those with their own political adjenda. They are as much of a 'historical account' as gone with the wind.

[McCulloch]

We have passages much like this.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

I also happen to agree with you that God has done things that would leave no doubt in men's minds.


AND YET>>>>

Atheists still exist.

The verses cited are logically equivalent to, "There are stars therefore God."

So because there are people on this forum who are both intelligent and reasonable, and yet they remain non-theists, my argument is not fatally flawed (at least not in this way. 8 other ways perhaps but not this way.)

[MrWhy]

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

False. Most atheists accept that we are ignorant in many areas, especially about the big origins questions. It's theists that think they know those answers. Recognizing where you are ignorant, and questioning everything is how knowledge progresses. If you think you already know the answer, learning is more difficult.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

The fear motivation would depend completely on how the proposed god presented itself. If the god demanded worship or it's hell, then fear it would be. If the god convinced it was truly forgiving and loving, then people would tend to listen and learn.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

No. Yes.