Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

[achilles12604]

[Easyrider]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

[achilles12604]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

[Goat]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

[Easyrider]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

Wrong on all accounts. The NT itself decimates this.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Just shows the devil is really good at leading people astray.

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

Show me a resurrected Pharoah / Caesar who could stay the storm, raise the dead, heal the sick, deaf, and blind, etc., etc.?

[Goat]

Topic Question: Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

He already appeared in the person of Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago. The skeptics would not believe him then and I doubt they will believe him today.

That aside, the world continues.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. - Romans 11

Good point. I was trying to humor this topic but I also realized the obvious answer that he already did come and try to teach in manner which still allowed for free will.

No.. he didn't. God is not a man .. God is not the son of Man.

Wrong on all accounts. The NT itself decimates this.

The claim that Jesus is god is not valid (in the eyes of all non-Christians).

Just shows the devil is really good at leading people astray.

Many men claimed to be God, from the Pharoahs, to the Ceasars. A claim does not make the claim to be true.

Show me a resurrected Pharoah / Caesar who could stay the storm, raise the dead, heal the sick, deaf, and blind, etc., etc.?

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

[Easyrider]

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

I'm not playing your self-serving game. The historical accounts of the NT are all there. And they were not "scripture" at the time they were written. At the time they were simply historical accounts, inspired by God, that just happend to be canonized at a later date.

[Goat]

Show me from evidence outside the Bible that Jesus was actually resurrected? Come to think of it, show me some evidence that "Jesus of Nazareth, as described in the Bible, existed at all. I am not talking about the forgeries inserted in Josphus, I am not talking about the words about Christians from the early 2nd century, but evidence for Jesus of Nazareth actually existing.

I'm not playing your self-serving game. The historical accounts of the NT are all there. And they were not "scripture" at the time they were written. At the time they were simply historical accounts, inspired by God, that just happend to be canonized at a later date.

Except they were later than you claim,and were often modified by those with their own political adjenda. They are as much of a 'historical account' as gone with the wind.

[McCulloch]

We have passages much like this.

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

I also happen to agree with you that God has done things that would leave no doubt in men's minds.


AND YET>>>>

Atheists still exist.

The verses cited are logically equivalent to, "There are stars therefore God."

So because there are people on this forum who are both intelligent and reasonable, and yet they remain non-theists, my argument is not fatally flawed (at least not in this way. 8 other ways perhaps but not this way.)

[MrWhy]

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

False. Most atheists accept that we are ignorant in many areas, especially about the big origins questions. It's theists that think they know those answers. Recognizing where you are ignorant, and questioning everything is how knowledge progresses. If you think you already know the answer, learning is more difficult.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

The fear motivation would depend completely on how the proposed god presented itself. If the god demanded worship or it's hell, then fear it would be. If the god convinced it was truly forgiving and loving, then people would tend to listen and learn.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

No. Yes.