God's actions make sense?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

God's actions make sense?

Post #1

Post by FarWanderer »

bjs wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:
bjs wrote:3. It is highly improbably that this alien would travel all this distance, blend into human form and society, all to create a false religion. The entire exercise seems pointless. It would mean that this alien not only choose to interact with people while intentionally lying to them, but also specifically set up a new religion knowing that this religion was false. At this point we pass being improbable and the idea become outright ludicrous.
Weird, yes, but how are the actions of the Christian God any less inscrutable? :-k
Here I can only say that we have a fundamentally different understanding of the Christian God.
Question for debate:
Are God's actions (and inaction) more comprehensible to us than that of a hypothetical alien as the historical Jesus?

I will agree that the reasons for an alien coming to Earth in order to found a religion are pretty incomprehensible. However, I think the Christian God's actions are similarly incomprehensible.

Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer. "God works in mysterious ways" and the like are not on the table this time.

Why does God allow suffering?
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Why did God permit slavery?

Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22880
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

FarWanderer wrote: Still puzzled as to why he would stop just to "bless" the 7th day.
♦ ANSWER Because that particular project was complete. His blessing was symbolic of his satisfaction and desire that the systems that he had put in place should continue in line with their purpose.
  • Do you find it "puzzeling" why a cook will stop cooking a cake when the cake is finished? Do you find it "puzzeling" why a runner will stop running after he crosses the finished line? Do you find it "puzzeling" why a mother will stop pushing once she has bought her new baby into the world?
God had finished preparing the earth for humans, created the humans (giving them the power of procreation) and blessed all his work with his approval that all continue to fulfill the purpose he created them for, logically there is nothing puzzling in that.



RELATED POSTS

Why does the bible speak of creating in stages?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 893#908893

Does the fact that Genesis 2.2 says God "rested" on the 7th day mean God can get tired?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 728#908728
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #32

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]
DID SATAN BELIEVE HE WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL?
(Looking around, sniffing the air.)

Seems to me that Satan was and is pretty successful, and has been in every Biblical story you can point a finger at.

Job, so many good people were lost because of Job's faith. I guess God is really bad at math to not know he lost Job's family, and kept Job.
Score for Satan.
Of course there is the Garden. Is there any way that Satan didn't simply OWN the filed in the Garden. He completely corrupted God's entire great work.
Score two for Satan.
He made God sacrifice his only begotten son so he could save a pathetically small fraction of humanity.
Score three (God zero).

Well you get the idea, is there any story in the Bible chronicle where God wins?
Or is that just in some imaginary future time when God has licked his wounds and made some amazing comeback?

So, yeah, going by the evidence at hand, Satan kicked tush and contemptuously ignored names.

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 12737
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 443 times
Been thanked: 467 times

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #33

Post by 1213 »

FarWanderer wrote:I do still think it's hard to make sense of natural disasters or child diseases.
They are all results of that people rejected God (good, truth and love) and chose evil. Without God, all kind of disasters becomes possible.
FarWanderer wrote:Yeah I get it. Still puzzled as to why he would stop just to "bless" the 7th day.
Maybe it as because He had done great job and it was good to make the end of project nice. :)
FarWanderer wrote:Thankful for their chance to go to Hell?
Hell is better than eternal life with evil people who would make eternal life eternal suffering for all. According to the Bible, hell is place where soul and body are destroyed. It is the end, but end doesn’t make the earlier time less valuable.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
FarWanderer wrote:
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
It was not according to the Bible.
This is an interesting response. Could you elaborate?
Ok, this depends on, what do you mean with sacrifice. Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death. Therefore, death was not necessary for forgiving sins.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25
FarWanderer wrote:But then we have our freedom taken from us if and when we go to Hell.
No, life just ends for those who are not righteous, but evil. God has given this “life� for all, but eternal life He gives only for righteous. And I believe it is because unrighteous people would make eternal life eternal suffering for all.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
FarWanderer wrote:How so? It seems to me that God would want the maximum possible audience.
Yeah, but as you said:
FarWanderer wrote:None, personally. It's an intellectual exercise, and perhaps an opportunity to understand how a great number of my fellow human beings (Christians) think.
Doing something is useful only if it makes difference. Maximum audience is probably that we now have, because those who don’t want to hear, don’t benefit anything from something more.
FarWanderer wrote:
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why not?
Because it's weaker evidence. For one, it means no one observes the Resurrection itself, which makes it more suspect, and two, it results in only his followers witnessing the empty tomb, which again makes it more suspect.
I don’t think it really matters have you seen the resurrection, if you have seen Jesus dying and then later see him back in life.

But perhaps the reason for three days was that he needed time in grave to do his work also in there:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25
FarWanderer wrote:You don't think the talent distribution between gold medal Olympians and your average couch potato seem arbitrary?
No. People who win, have done much work for that. The biggest difference is that winners want it more than couch potatoes.
FarWanderer wrote:But they would read Scripture instead?
For those who want to hear, scripture is sufficient. For those who don’t want to hear and understand, nothing would be sufficient.
FarWanderer wrote:And no, I would not suddenly love anyone just because they said something to me directly, but how indirectly telling it to me through a book be any better?
I don’t think it would be any worse. And I think actions should be based on that you have right understanding and understand what is good and right and therefore want to do what is good and right. If you do things just because you hear the message the way you want, I think it is not very righteous and good way.
My new book can be read freely from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view

Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #34

Post by FarWanderer »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
This is a loaded question as it requires one accepts that both cases are considered "tyrannical".
I don't think it does. Not unless "less tyrannical" somehow doesn't include "not at all tyrannical".
JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
FarWanderer wrote:Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
NOTE The first question implies it would have been good if God had intervened the second question implies that it would have been tyrannical for him to have intervened
That's true. However, what I don't think you realize is that the second question wasn't my position, but rather me borrowing your position in order to point out an inconsistency. It's not an uncommon thing to do in a debate.

Allow me to rephrase the question:
How is it that God keeping Satan out of the Garden would be tyrannical, while God erasing all of Satan's gains by the force of flood is not tyrannical?
JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?
Why do some suffer/prosper more than others

♦ ANSWER: Because we are suffering from the harmful effects of the Edenic rebellion that thrust us into a world dominated by Satan.
  • The rebellion of Adam and Eve meant their children (the human family) would suffer the consequencess of their actions. This introduced sin, pain, illness and ultimately death to all humans. Death would be the great equalizer that no human, regardless of rank, nationality, or power, could escapte. Between birth and death however, the human family would be hit randomly by all manner of hardships, often through no fault of their own.
But why randomly? God may not have control over whether humans sin or how they sin, but surely he has control over the consequences of sin.

Pipiripi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:22 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #35

Post by Pipiripi »

My friends all this talking has one conclusion. Because God has put you and me in His plan for existence, He didn't hold His plan because sin has entered the world. Because loved HIS creation so much, He send His Son to die for my sin. Because of His plan we are here on this planet. And all those aliens you talking about! They are here with us, some in your body and some outside next to you. We Christians call them Demons. Those are the aliens that you don't see.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22880
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FarWanderer wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
This is a loaded question as it requires one accepts that both cases are considered "tyrannical".
I don't think it does. Not unless "less tyrannical" somehow doesn't include "not at all tyrannical".

Of COURSE "less tyrannical" doesn't include "not at all tyrannical". The spectrum of "less" does not include "zero"; in order to have less of a quality you must possess it but to a smaller degree. Less cruel =/= kind.

See my post # 24
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 860#908860




FarWanderer wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
FarWanderer wrote:Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
... I don't think you realize is that the second question wasn't my position, but rather me borrowing your position ... not an uncommon thing to do in a debate.
It is somewhat uncommon to do it so badly. The second question in no way represents my position since I neither said nor implied there was or would have been anything tyrannical in any of God's actions, whenever they may or may not have occurred.

See link above.



FarWanderer wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
FarWanderer wrote:Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
... the second question wasn't my position, but rather me ... point[ing] out an inconsistency.
And what "inconsistency" was that?
FarWanderer wrote: Allow me to rephrase the question:
How is it that God keeping Satan out of the Garden would be tyrannical, while God erasing all of Satan's gains by the force of flood is not tyrannical?
I don't believe anything God does (or refrains from doing), any options he chooses to take regardless of when or where, under any circumstance could ever be described to any degree as "tryannical".
Is that clear enough for you? I have taken the time to write an entire post on this subject, so I do not feel obliged to write more.

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6522
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 331 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #37

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 1 by FarWanderer]
Why does God allow suffering?
Because we can (and do) learn from suffering. Some may be made perfect through suffering.

(even though mankind's own choices are most often (if not always) the cause of our own or others' suffering)

So suffering serves a purpose.
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Christ said that His Father was still working.

"My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." John 5:17

So perhaps it means only that His creation work was complete. I see no reason to think it means that God rested because He was tired.
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
He does not.

For one, hell (as a place of eternal torment) does not exist. It is a doctrine of men. The world of the dead (hades/sheol - which words are translated as 'hell') is a resting/holding place of the dead, those who await the resurrection of the dead (some to life, some to judgment and the lake of fire - which lake of fire means the second death aka annihilation).


Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
All powerful does not mean that God will do wrong or break His word. God gave the world to Adam to govern; Adam subjected this world and the life in this world (including his own offspring) to Death. God purchased us back from Death with His own Son. Christ was a ransom sacrifice; His life for ours.

(His sacrifice accomplishes other things as well).

Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Earlier or later might not have taken care of the problem. Too soon or too late, and He might have harmed those He meant to protect. God acted according to the wisdom and timing HE knew would accomplish His ends.

Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
The Garden of Eden represents the spiritual realm. "Satan" is an angel/a spirit being. He was already in the spiritual realm. He was also supposed to be a guardian in the garden, which makes what he did so reprehensible.

Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Perhaps because only very select people in very select times are willing to hear Him, to know Him, to do what He has said they must do if they wish to know Him?

For example, God was going to reveal Himself (in person) to Israel, but they were too afraid. They were too afraid to see or to hear Him. They wanted a mediator instead and sent Moses to God, and said that they would listen to Moses instead.

"This is according to all that you asked of [the LORD] your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of [the LORD] my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.' (Deuteronomy 18:16)


Today we have Christ instead of Moses, and Christ has said,

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."



Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death?


Because that is the sign of Jonah, and also because Christ had gone to Sheol and preached there as well.
Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
I have received from the spirit that this would protect people from the dynamic power/energy that would be present at His raising. Unlike Lazarus and others, Christ was not just raised back to his previous flesh and blood body, but was instead raised with the new body (the white robe).

Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
What 'talent' are you referring to?

If you are referring to the parable of the talents (beginning at Matthew 5:14), people were given according to God's wisdom (as to what they had shown they could handle), and then given even more if they 'spent' (put to good work) what they had been given.

Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
God did not make a bet with Satan. Satan made an accusation of Job - that Job would 'curse God and die' (deny God, turn his back on God, renounce God) if God stopped protecting and providing so much to Job.

God drew back His hedge of protection and allowed Job to be tested (by Satan; God knew His servant Job already), so that Job could answer that accusation for himself and prove both the accusation and the Adversary (the one called Satan) wrong.

Satan also makes this same accusation of us. Just as he made it of Christ; hence the temptation and testing of Christ in the desert.

Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
He does not use scripture to spread His word. He used prophets at one time (who wrote the scripture, but who spoke what was given them to speak). Today, God speaks to us by His Son.

However, many people walk by sight, and not by faith (or perhaps they walk by sight until they learn to walk by faith). So scripture may be an allowance made to help with that.

Why did God permit slavery?
Perhaps because it saved lives (at one point) rather than destroyed lives. If a person was poor (as in destitute, no money, no food, no home, nothing) they could sell themselves to a master for a period of time (or even a lifetime if they loved their master and did not want to be set free), to have a home and food and perhaps even a family. Or to pay off a debt that they owe. Or to keep from being killed outright in battle.

Are there better ways to handle poverty and debt? Perhaps. (but there are plenty of people out there today, who are holding up signs that say they are willing to work for food. They might 'sign on' for just a day, but if possible, some might 'sign on' for much longer, just for food, and what if they were also offered a place to live? Some of them might have willingly become a bond-servant if it meant food and shelter, perhaps even love and companionship.)




Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22880
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FarWanderer wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?
Why do some suffer/prosper more than others

♦ ANSWER: Because we are suffering from the harmful effects of the Edenic rebellion that thrust us into a world dominated by Satan.
  • The rebellion of Adam and Eve meant their children (the human family) would suffer the consequencess of their actions. This introduced sin, pain, illness and ultimately death to all humans. Death would be the great equalizer that no human, regardless of rank, nationality, or power, could escapte. Between birth and death however, the human family would be hit randomly by all manner of hardships, often through no fault of their own.
But why randomly? God may not have control over whether humans sin or how they sin, but surely he has control over the consequences of sin.
God is omnipotent, there is nothing that he cannot control if he chooses to. God has chosen not to control the consequences of sin (whether that be the Adamic (inherited) sin or our own personal choices to sin) for the time being. What He has chosen to do however, is provide a remedy for the first which will have an impact on the second. This "remedy" is Jesus, but the full application of that "remedy" meaning the full benefit of Christ's ransom sacrifice, is yet in the future.


Why in the future and not now? For the same reason God has chosen to allow evil and suffering.


RELATED POST

Why has God allowed evil and suffering?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 722#908722

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975

Why did God allow Job to be tested?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 726#908726
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #39

Post by FarWanderer »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote: Allow me to rephrase the question:
How is it that God keeping Satan out of the Garden would be tyrannical, while God erasing all of Satan's gains by the force of flood is not tyrannical?
I don't believe anything God does (or refrains from doing), any options he chooses to take regardless of when or where, under any circumstance could ever be described to any degree as "tryannical".
Is that clear enough for you?
The quote of yourself here is not an argument or an explanation of any kind. It is simply a statement of your position, which has been perfectly clear all along.
JehovahsWitness wrote:I have taken the time to write an entire post on this subject, so I do not feel obliged to write more.
Yes, and that is the post I was referring to. I'll take it step by step since you consider that I did not give it due examination.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?
ARE GOD'S INTEVENTIONS "TYRANNICAL"?

ANSWER: No they are not! There are some that suggest that God's various interventions are "tyrannical" while some even build entire theologies on this premise, but it is in fact absolutely false.
OK. This is an assertion, not an argument. Which is fine, of course, but I expect it to be backed up with an argument.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
TYRANNICAL : Exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.

"using, showing, or relating to the unfair and cruel use of power over other people in a country, group, etc

source: The Cambridge online dictionary
I have no problem with this definition.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
  • Whether those that cast such accusations at God are aware of it or not, accusing God of being a "tyrant" and exercising his power in an unreasonably cruel and arbitrary (random, capricious, whimsical) way, was exactly the accusation that Satan made in the garden of Eden. The thousands of years during which God has withdrawn His direct rule and management of human affairs, has been to prove the absolute falsehood of this accusation. (For further details on Satan's accusation and why God chose to allow time to settle this issue, see the video in my post # 4 above
God has not fully withdrawn from "management" of human affairs. The Flood is the example in this case. If you want to argue that the Flood is an indirect kind of management, then that would also apply to keeping Satan out of the Garden.
JehovahsWitness wrote:DOES THE EDEN ACCOUNT PRESENT GOD AS BEING TYRANNICAL
  • Law & Order: Adam and Eve were given a sole prohibition, to abstain from eating from a particular tree. They had ample other trees to eat from and fully understood the prohibition and the imposed punishment of defiance. They were capable of obeying the rule and as the Creator of the universe, God had the right to establish rules of behaviour in his own domain without being accused of tyranny. His rule did not impose physical, emotional or spiritual harm, on the contrary it assured the respect for order and authority that is essential for the future well-being of the universe in general and the human family in particular.

    Why did God put the tree of knowledge in the Garden in the first place?
    http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 911#389911

    Punishment & Personal responsibility: It is both rightful and just that those that knowingly break a law that is protective of others be held responsible for their actions. To accuse God of being "tyrannical" in doing just that is grossly defamatory somthing which in turn becomes harmful of others.
For the record, I have not accused God of being tyrannical, only that his actions are inscrutable. I have only implied that if keeping Satan out of the Garden qualifies as "tyrannical", then the Flood also does. I personally don't find either to be tyrannical.

If you want to argue that the problem is only that keeping Satan out of the Garden would appear tyrannical, then still the same issue applies to the Flood- that it would appear tyrannical.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Were Adam&Eve set up to fail?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066 [/list]

WOULD IMMEDIATE INTERVENTION IN EDEN - "TYRANNICAL"?
  • While God rightly allowed Adam and Eve the free exercise of their god-given free will, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, God chose to immediately intervene. His intervention involved:
    • Finding and judging all the participants in the rebellion
    • pronouncing the punishment in line with the law and
    • implementing eventual reparation of the damage.
    None of the above can rightly be considered "tyrannical" as it reflected divine justice with a view to the protection of the innocent.
Again, I do not find God's actions in this case tyrannical.
JehovahsWitness wrote:LATER INTERVENTION - "TYRANNICAL"?
  • While the explusion of Adam and Eve was immediate, their eventual death as well as the destruction of Satan and the reparation of the subsequent damages was to be held of for a later date. Was this delay "cruel" "unreasonable" and "tyrannical" or kind, reasonable and merciful?

    The prophetic pronouncement found in Genesis 3:15 fortells divine intervention to repair the damage caused by the original rebellion of both Satan and Adam and Eve. We can no more view such eventual intervention as "tyrannical" than we can a skilled surgeon performing an operation on a patient to repair the damage from an accident. Further some rectifiying measures cannot be done immediately and must be held off for the right conditions. This was the case in with the death of Adam and Eve, who were allowed to have children, and the eventual destruction of Satan who would be allowed time for his accusations to be proven absolutely false.
The issue I am bringing up has nothing to do with punishment. It has to do with fairness in God's competition with Satan. You say that Satan raised an issue in the Garden that had to be addressed, and that Satan would eventually be proven wrong. But it seems to me that Satan was winning so much by Noah's day that God had to intervene to stop it.

I don't think God is obligated to entertain Satan's accusation, but if he does, then to undo all of Satan's work by force of flood is cheating.
JehovahsWitness wrote:CONCLUSION: Jehovah God (YHWH) has done nothing but act in a balanced reasonable, loving and just manner. He has punished where absolutely necessary, and shown mercy when possible. The accusation that his Edenic actions are in any way "tyrannical" un a gross misrepresentation of his character and actions.
And to this I will say once again that I don't think God was being tyrannical in anything he did or didn't do in Eden.

The idea of God being tyrannical in Eden didn't even come up until you asserted that God destroying Satan in order to stop him from corrupting Adam and Eve would have been tyrannical, or at least appeared so. And since then, I have only ever referred to that particular hypothetical which you brought up.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #40

Post by ttruscott »

FarWanderer wrote: Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer.

Why does God allow suffering?
To gain HIS purpose of our loving HIM truly with an ability to enter a true marriage with HIM (that is, to become good) our free will was an absolute necessity and a will that cannot chose to NOT love nor marry, ie, to choose not to fulfil GOD's purpose for our creation, (that is, to become evil) is not free. The necessity of our free will necessitates the ability to choose evil with the corollary of suffering and death.
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
To rest does not mean HE was tired, it only means that HE finished HIS acts of creation and stopped creating.
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Contrary to many Christians (and one of the reasons I rejected the so called God of love for so many years who would do this) I now believe HE did not know who would end in hell before they were created because HE did not create the results of our true free will decisions, but let us choose our fates by from our own desires: Acts 15:18.
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Omnipotence only means HE can do with power what power can do. How much power does it take to forgive? Omnipotence is moot.

So saying, why the Trinity needed the method of self sacrifice to end sin in their elect is not part of my learning nor understanding...yet.
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
The flood was a method of teaching HIS people, especially those of the end times (now?) that even if the whole world is against you and under judgment, GOD can save you.
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
HE allowed the serpent into the garden to let him prove by his actions that he was not their pastor or mentor but their worst enemy...part of how they could be sinful/naked yet not admit it, ie were not ashamed. All commands, laws, are given to convict sinners of their need for repentance: Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. and as this verse also says, NOT to be a guide for a righteous life which comes from faith in Christ not the intellect nor understanding of the truth. Demons know the truth yet are condemned already.

And HIS giving the command not to eat had the intended effect, their sinfulness incapacitated their willingness to obey so when they failed and realized that they had no ability not to fail their eyes were opened to their nakedness (not their eating) and they knew they were sinful...nakedness being a metaphor for sinful. Letting the serpent expose himself as their enemy also hints that their original sin, the sin they brought to the garden with them, was idolatry of the Satanic over GOD's command to come out from them so they could be judged, the automatic next order of business after the satanic implemented their rebellion in heaven.
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
GOD reveals HIMself to every sinful elect person, the people of the kingdom, at sometime in their life. It is only the non-elect people of the evil one who do not get this revelation between when they learned the truth, Rom 1:0 and the Great White Throne judgment of Matt 25.
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
It was a legal action, not designed to create believers among those already condemned for unbelief. We are called to live by faith, not proof. It followed Jesus' principle of not tossing pearls before swine.
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Maybe talent is arbitrary but suffering is not but exactly proportioned to the need of the sinful elect to bring them to redemption and perfect repentance.
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
There was no bet... GOD sucked Satan into exposing himself as completely evil, so evil he would totally monster the world's most holy old man just because YHWH thought he was cool. I tend to accept that GOD asked Job to take on the job of setting Satan up to expose his abiding evil and Job agreed to do this onerous undertaking though it would cost him a lot but no more than his own sinfulness required.
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
The Bible is to bolster faith, and our faith is indeed supported by what we read. It is not designed to make sheep out of goats.
Why did God permit slavery?
Slavery is a natural activity of an evil person. All evil and its culmination in suffering and death is the inheritance every sinner receives for choosing to be evil. GOD allowed evil as my first answer to this list suggests, because of the necessity to give us a full free will able to choose to become holy and righteous, able to fulfill HIS purpose for our creation and also able to choose to become eternally evil, eternally rejecting HIS purpose. The necessity of our free will necessitates the ability to choose evil with the corollary of suffering and death.

Everyone has their own personal bugaboo but in fact one evil is no worse than any other for all have the same value of ultimate disvalue before GOD.
Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.
Don't you think your own study of Christian theology and how it answers questions of evil might be beneficial? Or are you looking for the unanswerable question rather than any answers at all?
Last edited by ttruscott on Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Post Reply