God's actions make sense?

[FarWanderer]

3. It is highly improbably that this alien would travel all this distance, blend into human form and society, all to create a false religion. The entire exercise seems pointless. It would mean that this alien not only choose to interact with people while intentionally lying to them, but also specifically set up a new religion knowing that this religion was false. At this point we pass being improbable and the idea become outright ludicrous.

Weird, yes, but how are the actions of the Christian God any less inscrutable?

Here I can only say that we have a fundamentally different understanding of the Christian God.

Question for debate:
Are God's actions (and inaction) more comprehensible to us than that of a hypothetical alien as the historical Jesus?

I will agree that the reasons for an alien coming to Earth in order to found a religion are pretty incomprehensible. However, I think the Christian God's actions are similarly incomprehensible.

Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer. "God works in mysterious ways" and the like are not on the table this time.

Why does God allow suffering?
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Why did God permit slavery?

Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.

[ttruscott]

1)
Regarding the allowance of suffering. You appealed to a greater good that can come through suffering. I do not think this is a bad point, however I do wonder why Satan might think that God is not good. Why would anyone who knows of God's existence rebel against him?

I think your inference is correct that no one who knew GOD would rebel against HIM, to HIS face, against HIS glory. Therefore I accept the doctrine that Satan did not know YHWH as GOD but only HIS claims to be our creator GOD and that salvation from all sin was only to be found in HIS Son, the Lamb to be slain.

And especially why would they ever think they could get away with it?

After mulling over the claims of GOD, Satan et al decided that HE was probably a liar and a false god and his promises the lies of a false god. Thus they were not actually choosing to go to hell as many think, but were putting their faith in their idea that because he was a false god he had no power to condemn anyone, no power over heaven or hell.

Of course they were perfectly committed to this faith because they rejected the method of the sinful elect who chose to come under HIS promises first and then to rebel to go their own way, safe from hell. This commitment is part of the reason they are eternally evil...as sinners they can never change nor repent.

[JehovahsWitness]

CONCLUSION: Jehovah God (YHWH) has done nothing but act in a balanced reasonable, loving and just manner. He has punished where absolutely necessary, and shown mercy when possible. The accusation that his Edenic actions are in any way "tyrannical" un a gross misrepresentation of his character and actions.

What part of the above implies that *MY* position (ie what I believe to be true) is that God is in anyway under any circumstance "tyrannical"?

Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

the second question wasn't my position, but rather me borrowing your position.

• [Do you have difficulty in differenciating between (Satanic) accusations and a person's personal position or beliefs on a topic?
• What, after I explicitly stated the contrary makes you think my position on the subject would include the belief in any tryanny on the part of YHWH?

I don't believe anything God does (or refrains from doing), any options he chooses to take regardless of when or where, under any circumstance could ever be described to any degree as "tryannical".

... It is simply a statement of your position, which has been perfectly clear all along.

If it has been "perfectly clear" then the problem must be in your comprehension since you seem to indicate you believe my position was that God's action (or inaction) is to some degree "tyrannical" ("less" being somewhere on the spectrum of "tyrannical").

The idea of God being tyrannical in Eden didn't even come up until you asserted that God destroying Satan in order to stop him from corrupting Adam and Eve would have been tyrannical, or at least appeared so. And since then, I have only ever referred to that particular hypothetical which you brought up.

Did I say it would have been tyrannical or did I say may have appeared so? (provide the quote, and I will reexamine what I actually said rather than what you presume).

I chose my words extremely carefully so may I respectfully suggest you refrain from telling me what my position is (I'm more than capable of expressing my position) and simply quote me. If you have misunderstood (as in this case) and are attributing to me a position I do not hold, I will be more than happy to set you straight.

Best Regards,

JW

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 42 by JehovahsWitness]

OK, so correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying God cannot be tyrannical even hypothetically? As in, no matter what we suppose he did, it would never be tyrannical.

Even given that, my argument doesn't change except that I put "apparently" in front of "tyrannical". You said that God let Satan do what he did in the Garden because otherwise it would have been apparently tyrannical- that is your position correct? How is the Flood not also apparently tyrannical in the same way?

[FarWanderer]

I do still think it's hard to make sense of natural disasters or child diseases.

They are all results of that people rejected God (good, truth and love) and chose evil. Without God, all kind of disasters becomes possible.

I do find the relationship between "rejecting God" and natural disasters just suddenly becoming possible to be... tenuous.

Thankful for their chance to go to Hell?

Hell is better than eternal life with evil people who would make eternal life eternal suffering for all. According to the Bible, hell is place where soul and body are destroyed. It is the end, but end doesn’t make the earlier time less valuable.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

OK fair enough. If you are an annihilationist, which it sounds like you are, then that particular question does not apply to you.

Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?

It was not according to the Bible.

This is an interesting response. Could you elaborate?

Ok, this depends on, what do you mean with sacrifice. Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death. Therefore, death was not necessary for forgiving sins.

Hmm, yeah I suppose that's true.

What then, if anything, was the purpose of his crucifixion?

How so? It seems to me that God would want the maximum possible audience.

Yeah, but as you said:

None, personally. It's an intellectual exercise, and perhaps an opportunity to understand how a great number of my fellow human beings (Christians) think.

Doing something is useful only if it makes difference. Maximum audience is probably that we now have, because those who don’t want to hear, don’t benefit anything from something more.

I'm a bit of an anomaly, but that's besides the point. Me aside, there are plenty people who claim they would believe if only they were provided the right evidence. I don't think they are all liars.

You don't think the talent distribution between gold medal Olympians and your average couch potato seem arbitrary?

No. People who win, have done much work for that. The biggest difference is that winners want it more than couch potatoes.

It's not one or the other. Peter Dinklage will never be a pro basketball player no matter how much he trains.

[FarWanderer]

4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?

Why do some suffer/prosper more than others

♦ ANSWER: Because we are suffering from the harmful effects of the Edenic rebellion that thrust us into a world dominated by Satan.

• The rebellion of Adam and Eve meant their children (the human family) would suffer the consequencess of their actions. This introduced sin, pain, illness and ultimately death to all humans. Death would be the great equalizer that no human, regardless of rank, nationality, or power, could escapte. Between birth and death however, the human family would be hit randomly by all manner of hardships, often through no fault of their own.

But why randomly? God may not have control over whether humans sin or how they sin, but surely he has control over the consequences of sin.

God is omnipotent, there is nothing that he cannot control if he chooses to. God has chosen not to control the consequences of sin (whether that be the Adamic (inherited) sin or our own personal choices to sin) for the time being. What He has chosen to do however, is provide a remedy for the first which will have an impact on the second. This "remedy" is Jesus, but the full application of that "remedy" meaning the full benefit of Christ's ransom sacrifice, is yet in the future.

I'm not even sure if this addresses the question. Why are the material manifestations of sin random without God? And better yet how can they even be random unless God deliberately made them so? However it is that sin manifests itself in material reality, God created the conduits through which it does so, and he must have done so knowingly.