God's actions make sense?

[FarWanderer]

3. It is highly improbably that this alien would travel all this distance, blend into human form and society, all to create a false religion. The entire exercise seems pointless. It would mean that this alien not only choose to interact with people while intentionally lying to them, but also specifically set up a new religion knowing that this religion was false. At this point we pass being improbable and the idea become outright ludicrous.

Weird, yes, but how are the actions of the Christian God any less inscrutable?

Here I can only say that we have a fundamentally different understanding of the Christian God.

Question for debate:
Are God's actions (and inaction) more comprehensible to us than that of a hypothetical alien as the historical Jesus?

I will agree that the reasons for an alien coming to Earth in order to found a religion are pretty incomprehensible. However, I think the Christian God's actions are similarly incomprehensible.

Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer. "God works in mysterious ways" and the like are not on the table this time.

Why does God allow suffering?
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Why did God permit slavery?

Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post above

Why would anyone who knows of God's existence rebel against him?

♦ ANSWER: Rebellion is not determined by being aware of the existence of the authority. Rebellion isn't even determine by one's chances of success, rebellion is determined by a profound distaste for the powers in existence and a desire no longer to submit to it regardless of the cost.

• Satan evidently made a conscious decision to exercise his god given free will against his Creator. He no longer wanted to live by God's rules and as with most rebellions, he (Satan) must have been known that his rebellion could indeed lead to his own death. I would ask you, how many rebels were aware that what they were doing was against a real (existing) power/rulership or government and that their actions may well lead to their personal demise?

Whether Satan is justified in that rebellion is the reason God has permitted wickedness and the subsequent suffering (see links & videos provided)




JW



RELATED POSTS

Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 723#908723

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975

Since God created free will and permits evil choices - is God not ultimately RESPONSIBLE for evil?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post # 21 by JehovahsWitness above

Why would they ever think they could get away with it?

DID SATAN BELIEVE HE WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL?

♦ ANSWER: We don't know if Satan did initially think he would "get away with" his rebellion. The bible doesn't give us that much insight as to the workings of his mind or of his personal convictions [* ]. Thus we can only speculate as to what degree of success Satan initially believed he would achieve. We can reasonably assume he had given the matter much thought and believed some degree of success achievable. Satan's strategy indicates he knew Jehovah (God/YHWH) well enough to know he would survive daring to challenge God's rulership in the first place and be given the opportunity to it his (Satan's) best shot.

[*][/color] For the question as to why someone would rebel without believing they would have ultimate success see post #21 above] [/i]

Satan fully understood that by creating intelligent beings with free will, YHWH (God) was giving them the right to self determination. Therefore if the human family chose self rule, God was honor bound to give it to them or undermine his own standards. Possibly (and again we can only speculate) Satan reasoned, he could paint God into a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situaiton. Reasoning "If I can influence all humans to chose self rule then God has to give it to them and if he refuses to do so, he undermines his own sovereignty and I still "win".

PRIDE COMETH BEFORE A FALL

Of course, ultimately it is delusional to believe one can "out smart" The One that created "smart", but that's what pride will do.

• Satan's success with the first human couple may well have fed the rampent pride that lead to the rebellion in the first place. Pride may well have lead him to believe, easy touch that they are, that the human family would follow Adam and Eve's example, either from deliberate choice or from ignorance. Possibly, delusions of grandeur lead him to believe that 100% manipulation of the human family was indeed possible (after all, he had 100% success in Eden - and that was with individuals that lived in perfect conditions and personally interacted with God perhaps on a daily basis). He may well have reasoned "What chance in a world that *I* get to rule, where I saturate these weak and easily manipulated humans with my propaganda (from porn to politics, false religion to atheism, greed to speed...) from birth?"
  
  And to be fair, with only 1 individual per 1000 on the planet that fully understand the issues involved (see links and videos provided) and take an active position for Jehovah's sovereignty, he (Satan) was not far wrong. But wrong he is!

Having implied that he could influence all humans (ie 100%) to oppose God, it would only take one individual standing for God's Sovereignty for him to be proven wrong; and those individuals (Job being a fine example) have risen to the challenge (see Prov 27:11). Did he (Satan) know such humans would exist? Who knows, if he wasn't mad with pride he should have figured they would, regardless of their disappointing pedegree.

CONCLUSION: So can we say for certain to what extent Satan believed in his chances of success, I don't think we can, but possibly Satan did, psychopath that he became, believe he could beat God by playing dirty, knowing the Creator will always do the right thing. In any case, the Edenic judgement put end to any illusions Satan may have had, as YHWH (God) pronounced the outcome for him (Satan) and his schemes. From that moment, Satan knew he was playing on the losing team.




RELATED POSTS

Where did Satan come from?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 940#891940

[JehovahsWitness]

4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?

Why do some suffer/prosper more than others

♦ ANSWER: Because we are suffering from the harmful effects of the Edenic rebellion that thrust us into a world dominated by Satan.

• The rebellion of Adam and Eve meant their children (the human family) would suffer the consequencess of their actions. This introduced sin, pain, illness and ultimately death to all humans. Death would be the great equalizer that no human, regardless of rank, nationality, or power, could escapte. Between birth and death however, the human family would be hit randomly by all manner of hardships, often through no fault of their own.

WHY ME? WHY NOT ME?!

• Solomon, a great observer of the human condition, states the following fundamental truth:
  

  ECCLESIATES 9:11
  “I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor. Because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.�​ NWT

NOTE: In the first century of our common era, there were some that believed that inherited illnesses and disabilities were the result of the personal sins of the individual or their parents but Jesus did not support this idea (compare John 9:2, 3).

CONCLUSION: Without discounting personal responsibiliity we each hold for our lifestyle choices or minimizing Satan's role in targetting certain individuals (as was the case of righteous Job), the suffering or material prosperity of individuals is often an accident of birth and/or circumstance and entirely random.

FURTHER READING: Why Does God Allow *ME* to Suffer?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012804#h=2AN

RELATED POSTS

Why did God allow JOB to be tested?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 726#908726

[JehovahsWitness]

7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

ARE GOD'S INTEVENTIONS "TYRANNICAL"?

ANSWER: No they are not! There are some that suggest that God's various interventions are "tyrannical" while some even build entire theologies on this premise, but it is in fact absolutely false.

TYRANNICAL : Exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.

"using, showing, or relating to the unfair and cruel use of power over other people in a country, group, etc



source: The Cambridge online dictionary

• Whether those that cast such accusations at God are aware of it or not, accusing God of being a "tyrant" and exercising his power in an unreasonably cruel and arbitrary (random, capricious, whimsical) way, was exactly the accusation that Satan made in the garden of Eden. The thousands of years during which God has withdrawn His direct rule and management of human affairs, has been to prove the absolute falsehood of this accusation. (For further details on Satan's accusation and why God chose to allow time to settle this issue, see the video in my post # 4 above

DOES THE EDEN ACCOUNT PRESENT GOD AS BEING TYRANNICAL

• Law & Order: Adam and Eve were given a sole prohibition, to abstain from eating from a particular tree. They had ample other trees to eat from and fully understood the prohibition and the imposed punishment of defiance. They were capable of obeying the rule and as the Creator of the universe, God had the right to establish rules of behaviour in his own domain without being accused of tyranny. His rule did not impose physical, emotional or spiritual harm, on the contrary it assured the respect for order and authority that is essential for the future well-being of the universe in general and the human family in particular.
  
  Why did God put the tree of knowledge in the Garden in the first place?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 911#389911
  
  Punishment & Personal responsibility: It is both rightful and just that those that knowingly break a law that is protective of others be held responsible for their actions. To accuse God of being "tyrannical" in doing just that is grossly defamatory somthing which in turn becomes harmful of others.
  
  Were Adam&Eve set up to fail?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

WOULD IMMEDIATE INTERVENTION IN EDEN - "TYRANNICAL"?

• While God rightly allowed Adam and Eve the free exercise of their god-given free will, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, God chose to immediately intervene. His intervention involved:
  • Finding and judging all the participants in the rebellion
  • pronouncing the punishment in line with the law and
  • implementing eventual reparation of the damage.
  None of the above can rightly be considered "tyrannical" as it reflected divine justice with a view to the protection of the innocent.

LATER INTERVENTION - "TYRANNICAL"?

• While the explusion of Adam and Eve was immediate, their eventual death as well as the destruction of Satan and the reparation of the subsequent damages was to be held of for a later date. Was this delay "cruel" "unreasonable" and "tyrannical" or kind, reasonable and merciful?
  
  The prophetic pronouncement found in Genesis 3:15 fortells divine intervention to repair the damage caused by the original rebellion of both Satan and Adam and Eve. We can no more view such eventual intervention as "tyrannical" than we can a skilled surgeon performing an operation on a patient to repair the damage from an accident. Further some rectifiying measures cannot be done immediately and must be held off for the right conditions. This was the case in with the death of Adam and Eve, who were allowed to have children, and the eventual destruction of Satan who would be allowed time for his accusations to be proven absolutely false.

CONCLUSION: Jehovah God (YHWH) has done nothing but act in a balanced reasonable, loving and just manner. He has punished where absolutely necessary, and shown mercy when possible. The accusation that his Edenic actions are in any way "tyrannical" un a gross misrepresentation of his character and actions.

RELATED POSTS

Was the Edenic Law absurd or unreasonable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

Would God not EXPECT his law to be broken ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

Did Adam and Eve understand the punishment (notion of death)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 053#849053

To learn more please go to other posts related to ARMAGEDDON, GEHENNA and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

[Pipiripi]

My friend Satan knows that sometimes ago he has eternal live. But he knows also that he have a plenty of time for existence. Read revelation 12:1-17. Some words are symbolic language, but the Bible says exactly who the Dragon is. Is time to study the Bible for yourself and, if someone cannot show you Biblical where to find your answers don't trust them.

[JehovahsWitness]

7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

This is a loaded question as it requires one accepts that both cases are considered "tyrannical". I have addressed this issue in # 24 above.




QUESTION: Why did God intervene in punishing the wicked in Noah's day but refrain from destroying Satan (and Adam and Eve) in Eden?


ANSWER: God's interventions are all ultimately related to the furtherance of his will and purpose: namely the sanctification of His name and the vindication of his sovereignty. God announced his intention to produce a promised Messiah, a human descendant of Adam and Eve, who would repair the damage caused by the original rebellion and fulfill God's purpose. God (Jehovah/YHWH) permitted Adam and Eve to live and have children for this reason, he allowed Satan and other rebellious angels to continue to exist after their rebellion, for this reason, and he intervened to protect Noah and his family (and restablish a certain order regarding reproduction) for the very same reason.

NOTE The first question implies it would have been good for God to have intervened, the second question that it would have been tyrannical for him to have intervened


RELATED POSTS

Why did God ALLOW such wickedness in Noah's day?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 734#908734

Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?

Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

NOTE The first question implies it would have been good if God had intervened the second question implies that it would have been tyrannical for him to have intervened

[JehovahsWitness]

Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death?

♦ ANSWER: Because waiting 3 hundred years would have been too long as anyone that was a personal eyewitness to Jesus' death and could therefore testify to his resurrection, would themselves be dead, and waiting only three minutes would give rise to doubts Jesus had actually died at all. A reasonable period between the two extremes was necessary and three days , in keeping with the pattern prophetically established by Jonah, was that which was chosen. One could also speculate that leaving Jesus disciples longer in fear and grief would have been cruel.


RELATED POSTS

Easter challenge 2018: Resurrection "contradictions"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 299#908299

6) Regarding the choice of 3 days for the Resurrection. Given that no one observed Jesus's body after the day of his death, any additional days beyond that would not change the plausibility of him having still been alive.

And what "additional" day was there? Jesus was dead for parts of three days (not 3 x 24 hours) and ressurect on the first day after the Sabbath. A Sabbath resurrection would have been impractical as nobody would have remarked the body being gone on a Sabbath (no Jew would visit a tomb site on a Sabbath as contact with a dead body or any item touched by a dead body would render them ceremonially unclean).

So Jesus was resurrected on the first "available" day (with no "additional" day of extra delay) after his death.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

3)
Regarding the permission of slavery. I did not mean "permit" in the sense that he did not intervene, but in the sense that he did not condemn. Why does God refrain from calling slavery a moral evil?

ANSWER Because slavery is not a moral evil. While the modern legal definition of slavery carries the meaning of being forced to work without proper renumeration and has a deeply negative connotations, biblically slavery is simply being in a position of servitude which is not of itself negative or evil.

The original-language words rendered in the bible can refer to persons in any type of service whether to a human (for financial or social reasons) or to God (for religious purposes). The word "slave" and "servant" are interchangeable in scripture. In the bible the ownership of another person was regulated under the Mosaic law and not something that is necessarily negative as the same principle was applied to any dependent member of the household for whom the head of the house was under obligation to protect and provide for.

CONCLUSION: Modern day slavery has its deeply negative connotations due to the inhumane systems that have existed throughout the ages, but in the bible the notion of slavery, is not necessarily synonymous with such abusive and inhumane treatment, is not in itself negative. In short, there is good slavery and bad slavery; the bible encourages "good" slavery to be practised under the Mosaic system for as long as it was to be in force.






RELATED POSTS

Slavery under the Mosaic Law
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p333895

Was it possible to abuse power under the Mosaic law?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p764027

What was good and positive about slavery under the Mosaic system?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 54#p811754

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

Attempts to whitewash what the Bible teaches about slavery fall apart when we read what the Bible actually states about slavery. In Leviticus 25 we find a clear explanation of how slavery was to be practiced.

Some who actually do address what we find here use the faulty tactic of only addressing what it says about how to treat Israelites. Once we examine how other ethnic groups are to be treated and the fact that they become permanent slaves, we find the claim that biblical slavery is nothing like "modern slavery" isn't valid.

This passage echoes of the race based slavery practiced in the U.S. prior to the Civil War:

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)

"44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness."

[JehovahsWitness]

2)
Regarding God's rest. I acknowledge that resting in this case does not mean to get tired. But [why] the spreading out of the work into stages ....

WHY DID GOD CREATE IN STAGES?

♦ ANSWER Because God loves his intelligent creatures.

Time for an infinite God has no meaning, but from the moment he created other intelligent spirit beings his actions could be measured by sequence. The bible speaks of God's angels (spirits) observing creation and applauding in appreciation. Indeed if we humans are captivated by the awe inspiring beauty of creation, having front seat tickets as he progressively prepared a home for humans must have been unspeakably moving and educational.

1 CORINTHIANS 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace

Of course instantaneous doesn't mean disorder, as God could have compressed all the order he created in the physical universe into a nanosecond of activity, but Showing the stages that lead to the end result leads to better understand both of the how and the why of things. Humans, due to the fact that we were created with an near unending curiosity, need to understand how and why to be truly happy. By creating in stages, how the earths interdependent systems are related, could be discovered and demonstrated. And this and for moral individuals, this would lead to a greater appreciation of both the creation and the Creator (see Rev 4:11).



JW