The Bible's Biggest Problem(s)?

[POI]

In a continuation of this topic (viewtopic.php?t=39327&start=990), which only discusses one important topic, I present a follow-up....

For Debate:

1) Why didn't Jesus write the NT Himself? Why leave this task up to fallible humans to write what was floating around, only after decade(s) of oral traditions? Wouldn't Jesus know that earnest confusion would soon prevail, and that his true message(s) may get fouled up by human error and/or corruption?

2) Case/point: There exists countless denominations, with opposing belief systems, all in earnest in reading the exact same collection of books. If Jesus' intent is to convey truth, why not assure his message(s) are crystal clear and unified for all?

3) If Jesus also recognizes that many/most were/are illiterate, and/or the many who are literate merely read at a lower grade level, and that differing languages can also blur the message(s), why not write the Bible in a cohesive way in which even the most rudimentary person can understand, in all languages?

This is, in part, the problem of communication....

[JehovahsWitness]

...those scholars would accept that what Jesus wrote was his own words regardless of whether they believed the content of what he had written or not.

Fair enough ...certain scholars would accept authorship of a certain gospel while not necessarily holding its content to be truthful. And how does that resolve any if the issues in the OP or indeed differ in essence from any of the given gospels we have today?

[bluegreenearth]

...those scholars would accept that what Jesus wrote was his own words regardless of whether they believed the content of what he had written or not.

Fair enough ...certain scholars would accept authorship of a certain gospel while not necessarily holding its content to be truthful. And how does that resolve any if the issues in the OP or indeed differ in essence from any of the given gospels we have today?

It only needed to show that at least one objection could have been resolved had Jesus written his own autobiography. The objection it would have resolved was the debate about what Jesus may or may not have said as written in the gospels.

[POI]

1) Why didn't Jesus write the NT Himself?

It seems evident from.surviving records about him that Jesus did not believe his mission was to be a writer.

1 Timothy 1:15 (NWT)
15 This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.+ Of these, I am foremost

Luke 19:10 (NWT)
10 For the Son of man came to seek and save what was lost.”+

John 12:47 (NWT)
47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world.+

John 3:17 (NWT)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.+

Hebrews 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+ 9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+

1 John 4:9 (NWT)
9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son+ into the world so that we might gain life through him.+

Romans 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.+ 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood,+ will we be saved through him from wrath.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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BIBLICAL INERRANCY , CONTRADICTIONS and CORRUPTION OF SCRIPTURE

Your response here is to be ignored because one of the point(s) of this thread is to question whether or not the Gospels are in error and/or corrupted by humans? Further, what Jesus actually did say? We have no originals, nor, do we know what was actually preserved, if anything? And, if these originals, which are from oral traditions, are the actual words of Jesus? Hence, can we know if/what Jesus's intent actually was, for the much later written NT? Based upon your subsequent responses, looks as though you cannot really answer any of these questions with any implied veracity at all. The responses are instead just a bunch of speculation. Which I find odd, being Jesus's goal was to deliver truth?

[POI]

That would depend on if Jesus thought himself to be the Son of God or not.

Your response here, again, demonstrates the OP questions. You cannot say. Which is odd, since Jesus is claimed to be "the way, the truth, and the light." Maybe this itself is just another corrupted passage added by the ancients?

[POI]

There exists countless denominations, with opposing belief systems, all in earnest in reading the exact same collection of books. If Jesus' intent is to convey truth, why not assure his message(s) are crystal clear and unified for all?

a) Christians have an easy out for this because it's all solved if God doesn't punish anyone for earnest confusion.

b) The only way it's fully solved, however, is if God put a conscience in people that tells them nah that's not right when something has been altered by unscrupulous people into something genuinely immoral.

a) Christians always have an easy out, yes. As a believer, or even as a skeptic, one can argue for many differing premises, while using the same collection of books. Hence, why we have so many denominations.

b) Then we do not even need the Bibe to tell us what is (right or wrong) in the first place

[POI]

CLAIM : To clarify I hereby make one claim and one claim alone :

1. That there exist written manuscripts that contain records claiming to indicate the mindset of one Jesus of Nazareth.

Negative. We do not have the originals. And even if we did, we would have no idea how corrupted or inaccurate those documents would be. Why?

a) The originals are comprised after decade(s) of unfettered oral traditions. Oral traditions are not a reliable pathway to truth.
b) The ones who study these texts state that the more you go back, to the earlier writings that we do find, the more they deviate from one another. Less deviation came after the Bible was canonized in the 4th Century, and beyond, --- after emperor Constantin certified the belief as the official religion.
c) As Bluegreenearth already indicated, if Jesus wrote and preserved his expressed 'truths' himself, at least some stuff would be resolved. Case/point, we do not question what Paul thought or wrote.

[JehovahsWitness]

CLAIM : To clarify I hereby make one claim and one claim alone :

1. That there exist written manuscripts that contain records claiming to indicate the mindset of one Jesus of Nazareth.

Negative. We do not have the originals. ...

Did I say we had the originals?





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BIBLICAL INERRANCY , TRANSMISSION and ...HERMENEUTICS*

* bible interpretation

[POI]

CLAIM : To clarify I hereby make one claim and one claim alone :

1. That there exist written manuscripts that contain records claiming to indicate the mindset of one Jesus of Nazareth.

Negative. We do not have the originals. ...

Did I say we had the originals?





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#Can we know what the original scriptures contained since we don't have the originals?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p851803

What evidence do we have that the bible has been accurately TRANSMITTED throughout the ages?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 19#p972419

Does the idea of a Great Apostacy negate the authenticity of the bible canon?
viewtopic.php?p=1045515#p1045515

Has the bible been contaminated with human error?
viewtopic.php?p=979422#p979422

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , TRANSMISSION and ...HERMENEUTICS*

* bible interpretation

Thus, your guess is as good as mine. Which begs a fundamental question... Did Jesus really care to convey what IS true?

[Purple Knight]

Then we do not even need the Bible to tell us what is (right or wrong) in the first place

That's what I've been arguing, yes. If there's a fair God, he would not rely on dropping a book out of the sky and then shrug his shoulders when people mess with it. He would just give everyone a conscience that pointed due north.

And since mine doesn't, there's not a fair God. That or I'm an NPC. From someone else's perspective I guess that could be the case. But since I am me and I know it isn't, I have to say there's either an unfair God, or none at all.

What a book can have in this scenario, though, is elucidation. It can take you further if it holds your hand and you go along with it. But if your conscience doesn't follow along at every step it immediately ceases to be useful.

[John17_3]

In a continuation of this topic (viewtopic.php?t=39327&start=990), which only discusses one important topic, I present a follow-up....

For Debate:

1) Why didn't Jesus write the NT Himself? Why leave this task up to fallible humans to write what was floating around, only after decade(s) of oral traditions?

Evidently for the same reason God did not write the "OT" himself.

1. It would be way above humans' ability to understand, and grasp.
   • John 3:12 - If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
     When Jesus sent an angel with a message to John, the angel had to explain some of what he gave, because it was in symbols. That is just one book, and it is the most difficult for most of mankind. We can imagine if all the books were similar.
2. From God's and Jesus' perspective, what they write would be far different from how the human would write, and the human element would be lost, and the message detached from the readers. 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
3. Jesus was send to do God's will. and that involved the primary work of working in the harvest. Luke 4:43; Luke 10:1, 2; Matthew 13:30
   This is still the primary work. Matthew 28:18-20
   Working in the harvest is extremely urgent.
4. There is no need for the master to do the work that can be assigned to faithful and willing servants, who demonstrate their love, by doing works, such as recording the truth about God, and his Messiah, which enemies oppose. Luke 1:1-4
5. Using humans, allows God, and Jesus to sift people who are not humble, because they both know that persons who are not teachable, but proud, do not want to submit to or be led by other men, but want to do the leading and teaching of themselves.
   We see an example of this, when God used Moses, and spoke through Moses, to the people.
6. Using human representatives, allows those representatives, and the people who listen to them to demonstrate their faith in him.
   The prophets feared for their life, including Moses, but they went and declared God's message. They wrote God's message. Some of those infuriated persons Jeremiah 36:23. Some of the people did not want to listen to the prophets, because they looked at their imperfections Numbers 12:1-3; Numbers 16:1-3; Numbers 20:2-6, and at times felt they could do a better job. This is why God used men. It shows up the proud and faithless.

Wouldn't Jesus know that earnest confusion would soon prevail, and that his true message(s) may get fouled up by human error and/or corruption?

Jesus certainly knows that God's chief enemy Satan the Devil, is the god of this world (1 John 5:19), and the god of confusion (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4).
Jesus also knew of the confusion that would come about.
He gave the illustration at Matthew 13, of the enemy that planted weeds among the wheat, so he actually foretold the confusion.
His apostles also foretold this time of confusion that God would allow, and it serves his purpose, as it sifts the weeds from the wheat, by exposing those who do not really love the truth, but only pretend to. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

Would the true message be "fouled up"?
How could it? I don't see how that is possible.
As far as I know, the true message has stayed intact from the first time it was penned.
Can you please explain where you see that the true message got "fouled up"?

2) Case/point: There exists countless denominations, with opposing belief systems, all in earnest in reading the exact same collection of books.

This was foretold by God.
Jesus knew it would come. Matthew 24:11 - “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
1 John 4:1 - ...many false prophets have gone out into the world.

The enemy Satan the Devil, has been misleading persons from the beginning (John 8:44), and continues to do so (Revelation 12:9).
This is deliberate, and it is allowed by God.
The Bible says God draws those who are deserving. John 6:44, 45
Jesus sheep listen to his voice, and follow him. Those who are not his sheep will not heed the exhortation to leave the morass, so prevalent in the 'countless' denominations. God's people Revelation 18:4

We see in the Bible, that God knows many people do not love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12). This is something, we need to be aware of. God knows the heart. We don't.

If Jesus' intent is to convey truth, why not assure his message(s) are crystal clear and unified for all?

I think the message is crystal clear, and millions find this to be so.
For the message to be crystal clear, there are a few things the Bible tells us, need to be in place.

1. An honest and humble heart (Matthew 10:11; Luke 10:21; Acts 13:48)
2. A hunger for the truth (Matthew 5:3, 5, 6; Isaiah 55:1)
3. To be taught by God's servants, or his people - his ministers (Matthew 24:45; Acts 8:29-31)
   • This is because Jesus uses his slave to teach his people, and he directs them by holy spirit (Matthew 13:16; John 14:16, 17, 26).

3) If Jesus also recognizes that many/most were/are illiterate, and/or the many who are literate merely read at a lower grade level, and that differing languages can also blur the message(s), why not write the Bible in a cohesive way in which even the most rudimentary person can understand, in all languages?

Interesting question.
The scriptures were written in the language of the time, by people who loved and worshipped God. not by those who did not.
God used those who submitted to his spirit. 2 Peter 1:21
God's people spoke Hebrew, and Aramaic.

How could God use a foreign language, or other languages? He was not about to force pagans to write his message.

The Hebrew and Aramaic languages were during the time from Moses to the writers of the Psalms, and perhaps a few of the prophets.
Greek became the common language of God's people, in the first century.
These were Jesus' followers. Not people who did not know the truth, and would write pagan mythology.

In the book of Acts, Chapter 2, we read this:

• When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues [languages] as the Spirit enabled them.
  Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs - we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean? Acts 2:1-12

The message was spread to people speaking different languages, because it is God's will for people of all nations, and languages to hear the message. 1 Timothy 2:3, 4
Today, the Bible is being translated into many languages, so that all people can hear,
When a person speaking an entirely foreign language, shows interest in learning about God, efforts are made to translate the Bible into their tongue, so what happens is, God's people offer themselves willingly, to learn new languages, so that they can communicate with, and teach interested ones.

This is marvelous, because it not only demonstrates God's love for people, it demonstrates love on the part of God's people, to extent themselves to reach people, regardless of their nationality, and language.
It shows their faith in God, and it shows that there is nothing God cannot accomplish, even when using imperfect men.

The Bible could not be written in all the different languages, from the time of writing, since half the languages we have today, did not exist.
The message was written in the common language, of the people, and the message spread, through translation.

Can even the illiterate understand?
Yes. In my experience, adult men and women, and even children have been taught to read, free of charge, and in doing so, they were able to read and study the Bible, by means of an international Bible education work.

This is, in part, the problem of communication....

When it comes to communication, this does not prove to be a problem for God, as seen from the preceding.