Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

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Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

It is not uncommon in these debates for Apologists attempting to defend the Bible to be (or claim to be) unaware of significant Bible passages, and to be enlightened by Non- or Ex-Christians. Example:
OnceConvinced wrote:
1213 wrote: I don’t think Bible tells it is ok to beat slaves.
It does. And they can even beat their indentured servants too.

Luke 12:47-48 (OK to beat indentured servants)

Exodus 21:20-21 (Ok to beat slaves just as long as they don't die within a couple of days.
Is it rational for a person to attempt to defend the Bible when they demonstrate (or claim) to be unaware of significant, and often poignant, passages?

Does such ignorance or willful ignorance damage / destroy the credibility of the defense?
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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #81

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: What does 'reject God' have to do with 'destroy the nation'?
When the moral and reason/intellect of nation is destroyed, there can happen many things that cause destruction. One way is that when the unity is gone, the nation becomes weak for external and internal threats. The nation can itself collapse and be divided into several groups, or other nations can more easily destroy it. Also, when it goes long enough, God can end it, similarly as the Bible tells has happened many times in the history. Person who is ready to break the law in one point, can do it in every point. This leads to situation like this:

and because lawlessness will increase, the love of many people will grow cold.
Matt. 24:12

Crime rate will increase, suffering will increase and it also leads eventually to totalitarian government that tries to control everything. People will lose freedom and life becomes miserable. So, witchcraft, or gay sex are small steps towards destruction. They are not the whole path, but without small steps the whole trip could be avoided. More crucial than the acts itself is the state of mind that is changed. In Biblical point of view the question is about righteousness. When person is righteous, he does all kind of righteous actions and if person is unrighteous, he does all kind of unrighteous actions. So, the problem really is, if the mind is unrighteous, because it makes all evil actions possible. That is why I think eternal life is promised for righteous.
Let’s dispense with the phony religious propaganda and look at the real world.
The theory is simple: If people become less religious, then society will decay. Crime will skyrocket, violence will rise, and once-civilized life will degenerate into immorality and depravity. It’s an old, widespread notion. And it’s demonstrably false.

If it were true that when belief in God weakens, societal well-being diminishes, then we should see abundant evidence for this. But we don’t. In fact, we find just the opposite: Those societies today that are the most religious — where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high — tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to have the lowest.

We can start at the international level. The most secular societies today include Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Czech Republic, Estonia, Japan, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Germany, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Hungary, China and Belgium. The most religious societies include Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi, Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Jordan, Algeria, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico and Sierra Leone.

It is the highly secularized countries that tend to fare the best in terms of crime rates, prosperity, equality, freedom, democracy, women’s rights, human rights, educational attainment and life expectancy. (Although there are exceptions, such as Vietnam and China, which have famously poor human rights records.) And those nations with the highest rates of religiosity tend to be the most problem-ridden in terms of high violent crime rates, high infant mortality rates, high poverty rates and high rates of corruption.

Take homicide. According to the United Nations’ 2011 Global Study on Homicide, of the 10 nations with the highest homicide rates, all are very religious, and many — such as Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil — are among the most theistic nations in the world. Of the nations with the lowest homicide rates, nearly all are very secular, with seven ranking among the least theistic nations, such as Sweden, Japan, Norway and the Netherlands.

Now consider the flip side: peacefulness. According to the nonprofit organization Vision of Humanity, which publishes an annual Global Peace Index, each of the 10 safest and most peaceful nations in the world is also among the most secular, least God-believing in the world. Most of the least safe and peaceful nations, conversely, are extremely religious.

As professor Stephen Law of the University of London observed: “If a decline in religiosity were the primary cause [of social ills], then we would expect those countries that have seen the greatest decline to have the most serious problems. But that is not the case.�

What about within the United States? According to the latest study from the Pew Research Center, the 10 states that report the highest levels of belief in God are Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee and Oklahoma (tied with Utah). The 10 states with the lowest levels of belief in God are Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Alaska, Oregon and California. And as is the case in the rest of the world, when it comes to nearly all standard measures of societal health, including homicide rates, the least theistic states generally fare much better than the most theistic. Consider child-abuse fatality rates: Highly religious Mississippi’s is twice that of highly secular New Hampshire’s, and highly religious Kentucky’s is four times higher than highly secular Oregon’s.

It is, of course, impossible to conclude from any of this data that secularism, in and of itself, causes societal well-being, or that religiosity causes social ills. Peacefulness, prosperity and overall societal goodness are undoubtedly caused by multiple, complex factors — economic, geographic, cultural, political, historical and so forth. That said, it is clear that a strong or increased presence of secularism isn’t the damaging threat to society so many continually claim it to be. If only the likes of O’Reilly and Huckabee would take heed.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/l ... story.html
WHY do people continue to repeat the phony religious propaganda when actual conditions in the real world demonstrate exactly the opposite?

“Don’t confuse them with facts, their mind’s made up�

"Just BELIEVE so you might go to heaven"
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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #82

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: …We can start at the international level. The most secular societies today include Sweden…
It is interesting that Sweden is positioned as the “rape capital� of the world. Also:
“A stark rise in incidents involving hand grenade explosions has become emblematic of the wider rise in violent crime in Swedish cities, report James Clayton and Caitlin Hanrahan for BBC Newsnight�.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43667367

But, I know some don’t think there is really any meaningful change. And also, the change, if it exists, may be because of some other reason than secularism. By what I know, secularism is not rising in Sweden, Islam is.
Zzyzx wrote:…It is the highly secularized countries that tend to fare the best in terms of crime rates, prosperity, equality, freedom, democracy, women’s rights, human rights, educational attainment and life expectancy. …
But what is the reason for the rights? Most, if not all of them are former Christian nations and it is the Christian people who build the system and gave the rights. now, when people reject Christianity, and more accurately the values and the “spirit�, we can see later what will be the result. At this point people still have matters well enough so there is not so much reason for crime. Also, there is vast surveillance systems to take care that people don’t easily do bad things. And secular countries don’t usually allow people to have guns, which makes it easier for the government to control people.

But, if people are good in secular countries, why there is the great need to increase surveillance and take guns away from the people? Why it is necessary that everything you do must be spied on, if you are not a bad person? Governments certainly seem to think people are really bad and evil.
Zzyzx wrote:… Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil — are among the most theistic nations in the world….
What does that mean? If people don’t have Christian values, I don’t see why call them Christian.
Zzyzx wrote:…WHY do people continue to repeat the phony religious propaganda when actual conditions in the real world demonstrate exactly the opposite?
Be patient, nation that is build well, doesn’t collapse instantly. The development has not lasted very long yet and there are still many people who have the Christian values. And it is not really about are people religious, but do they have the values. I don’t claim we should already see the total collapse, I only say what will be the result, if this continues far enough.
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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #83

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: …We can start at the international level. The most secular societies today include Sweden…
It is interesting that Sweden is positioned as the “rape capital� of the world. Also:
“A stark rise in incidents involving hand grenade explosions has become emblematic of the wider rise in violent crime in Swedish cities, report James Clayton and Caitlin Hanrahan for BBC

Really? You pick out one crime in one nation as an ‘argument’ against crime rates being low in secular nations including Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Czech Republic, Estonia, Japan, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Germany, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Hungary, China and Belgium.

How does that square with:

“According to the United Nations’ 2011 Global Study on Homicide, of the 10 nations with the highest homicide rates, all are very religious, and many — such as Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil — are among the most theistic nations in the world. Of the nations with the lowest homicide rates, nearly all are very secular, with seven ranking among the least theistic nations, such as Sweden, Japan, Norway and the Netherlands.�

“According to the nonprofit organization Vision of Humanity, which publishes an annual Global Peace Index, each of the 10 safest and most peaceful nations in the world is also among the most secular, least God-believing in the world. Most of the least safe and peaceful nations, conversely, are extremely religious. “

(Both from the article cited in the OP)

Do you argue that those nations have higher crime rates than highly religious nations including Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi, Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Jordan, Algeria, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico and Sierra Leone?

1213 wrote:
But, I know some don’t think there is really any meaningful change. And also, the change, if it exists, may be because of some other reason than secularism. By what I know, secularism is not rising in Sweden, Islam is.

Did you notice that argues against your own position?

1213 wrote:
But, if people are good in secular countries, why there is the great need to increase surveillance and take guns away from the people? Why it is necessary that everything you do must be spied on, if you are not a bad person? Governments certainly seem to think people are really bad and evil.

Do religious nation governments NOT spy on people or take guns away?

1213 wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:… Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil — are among the most theistic nations in the world….

What does that mean? If people don’t have Christian values, I don’t see why call them Christian.

Cute. If Christian nations or individuals don’t fit the argument, DENY that they are members of the club (no matter how religious they may be or how long their history of being heavily Christian).

Do you argue that Columbia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil are NOT ‘Christian nations’?

Are they still counted when bragging about Christianity having more members than Islam or Hinduism?
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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #84

Post by benchwarmer »

Zzyzx wrote:
Do you argue that Columbia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil are NOT ‘Christian nations’?

Are they still counted when bragging about Christianity having more members than Islam or Hinduism?
This is an excellent point. Christians are quick to point out how many of them there are in support of their religion being 'true', yet just as quick to disavow every other Christian sect than theirs when it comes to matters of theology and who is a 'true' Christian. Quite amusing to watch.

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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #85

Post by Elijah John »

marco wrote: [Replying to post 3 by SallyF]

The passage: �

Exodus 21:20-21 King James Version (KJV)

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


would be condemned in any civilised society. So too would be the command to murder witches. If it is argued that these old laws were acceptable in an ancient society how can it be asserted that the same pages give us instruction that our modern minds should heed? There may even be a case for declaring the biblical text
an incitement to violence, and to have unabridged bibles banned.


This applies to parts of the Koran as well - especially the notorious surah that tells a man to beat his disobedient wife. It is perhaps time we stayed firmly in the twenty first century and put aside ancient instructions.
Put them aside entirely is one option. The other option (the one that we moderate believers chose), is to separate the diamonds from the dung. Embrace the diamonds and flush the dung. But then again, some (even moderate) believers engage in theological, linguistic and rhetorical gymnastics in order to defend every passage, even the dung.

But all believers pick and choose whether they admit it or not. Even Evangelicals, JWs and RCs. How many of them preach the virtues of slave holding, or slave beating? Not since the American Civil War anyway.

We (believers) all cherry pick, at least by default. By not emphasizing passages such as Exodus 21.20-21, or Matthew 16.28, even if some believers do not actively repudiate such passages.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #86

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: …Do you argue that those nations have higher crime rates than highly religious nations including Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi, Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Jordan, Algeria, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico and Sierra Leone?
I don’t argue for religions, I just ask, what makes a nation secular or non-secular? For example, why is El Salvador a Christian nation?

Also, I was speaking/meaning of Christian influence, not about other religions and their influences. If Muslims are violent, it is not Christianity’s fault. And I don’t really know is there anything in the Islam that requires non-violent way. In Christian teachings there is lot of stuff against violence, therefore one could expect that Christian follows the teachings and is not violent. If Christian doesn’t follow the teachings of Jesus, I don’t see why call that person a Christian.
Zzyzx wrote:
1213 wrote: But, I know some don’t think there is really any meaningful change. And also, the change, if it exists, may be because of some other reason than secularism. By what I know, secularism is not rising in Sweden, Islam is.
Did you notice that argues against your own position?
My position is to show the truth. Sorry if I said religion is what saves, or protects from violence. I was speaking of Christian values, not about Islam, or not even about any religion. Religions are organizations that are as good as the people in them. And if people in religion don’t follow the teachings of Jesus, then they can be as evil as non-religious people.
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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #87

Post by Diagoras »

1213 wrote:Religions are organizations that are as good as the people in them. And if people in religion don’t follow the teachings of Jesus, then they can be as evil as non-religious people.
<bolding mine>

I recognise that many people on this forum have strongly held beliefs, but I hope that you didn’t mean the bolded part of your statement above to mean that all non-religious people are ‘evil’.

Please consider rephrasing what you wrote to avoid insulting forum readers.

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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #88

Post by marco »

Elijah John wrote:
The other option (the one that we moderate believers chose), is to separate the diamonds from the dung. Embrace the diamonds and flush the dung. But then again, some (even moderate) believers engage in theological, linguistic and rhetorical gymnastics in order to defend every passage, even the dung.

To continue your metaphor, EJ: if we have delicious apples caked in dung I think we would not eat them. Whether we like it or not, the dung alters the apples but the apples do not change the dung.
The Tanager wrote:
We (believers) all cherry pick, at least by default. By not emphasizing passages such as Exodus 21.20-21, or Matthew 16.28, even if some believers do not actively repudiate such passages.
I can see this is commendable when we overlook the flaws in those we love, sometimes loving them even more. I'm not sure that there is merit in applying this to a book. We read the book and then we make a judgment on its worth, and it is wrong, when we make that judgment, to ignore notorious passages.

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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #89

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 88 by marco]

Image

HAS THE BIBLE GOD EXCREMENT IN IT?
  • I have been told that, like a water contaminated with excrement, the content of the bible has to be filtered through human reasoning. The only problem with that is human wisdom is by definition, limited. We were not there to personally witness events, we are not in heaven to see if reports of conversations that took place there, really did, and even if were, we could not guarantee having all the relevant information to be sure our judgement is correct.
TO SUGGEST THAT SCRIPTURE IS BOTH PURITY AND DUNG AT SOURCE* NECESITATES THROWING THE WHOLE THING OUT OR CLAIMING OMNISCIENCE. ANYTHING LESS IS RUSSIAN ROULETTE

* "At source" meaning, From the moment it was first penned (rather than claiming errors of transmission which are verifiable)


  • Just like one could clean a glass of water of the visible lumps of excrement, what is most dangerous would remain on a micrscopic level, invisible to the naked eye. We may think we have cleaned it but we may in fact be wrong. We may be taking in foreign and dangerous pathogens or rejecting something which the author intended as an integral apart of scripture.

    Image

    Does that mean human reason has not place in bible study?
    No, one has to use ones reason, and all available information to come to a logical conclusion on the findammental questions as to whether we wishes to put faith in the bible as the word of God or not. Like being "a little pregnant" or "slightly dead", concluding "Some of it is, and some of it isnt" effectively equals a "NoVote" , that's fine but let's not put a feather in a pig and call it a swan! There are two camps, not three as some self-proclaimed "moderate Christians" propose. You cannot claim to "trust" water source and at the same time insist on sending each individual drop to a lab before drinking from it (or spitting half of it out because it tastes funny) such behaviour that means you don't trust the water.
For the majority of Christians, like many atheists I have spoken to, this is not problematic, they take what they see as reasonable and throw out the rest. But unlike the atheist (who has no faith*), most Christians understand there is much more at stake than mere intellectual exercise. Are not such Christians putting more faith in themselves than in their God? More importantly, would an omnipotent God who deliberately chose not to filter and protect his word (obviously if he is omnipotent he could find a way if he wanted to) , in order to protect His children from the inevitable contamination of religious confusion (or the utter delusion of believing they are qualified to see everything clearly enough to decide what God thinks about every issue mentioned in scripture), be worthy of our adoration at all?


* in any gods





JW



Further
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ed-of-god/


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Re: Lack of knowledge of the Bible?

Post #90

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 89 by JehovahsWitness]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears you are suggesting that the most reliable method for determining what is true in the Bible is to have faith that all of it is true. Is that the method you are proposing?

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