I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!
Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?
If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?
If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?
If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?
Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.
Can you PLEASE provide evidence?
Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?
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Post #51
no evidence no belief wrote:I don't object. But if somebody on this board didn't believe in God, but rather believed in Spiderman, Elves, Goblins, Ghosts or whatever, I wouldn't want him/her to be precluded from playing.Cephus wrote:God is just one part of the paranormal whole, but it seems like a good place to start, wouldn't you say? Especially given that so many theists start at that point and base their entire religious worldview off the unquestioned premise that a god of some sort actually exists.no evidence no belief wrote:Guys, I'm not asking for evidence of God.Cephus wrote:It would also depend on what god or gods we're talking about as to what evidence would be required. It's a very vague question at the moment. However, a god would know what it would take to convince me, and as I am not convinced, that's pretty good evidence right there against the existence of gods, at least those who might care if I believe.Peter wrote: Actually, I'm not sure what would convince me. Can one know what is convincing until the moment you're convinced? A god would know.
I'm asking for evidence of ANYTHING supernatural or paranormal.
I specifically and deliberately mentioned some non-god-related claims such as goblins, elves and radioactive spiders who give superpowers.
If you believe ANY supernatural/paranormal, not just God, please state so, and present evidence for your belief. Alternatively, admit that you have no evidence.
If the evidence is just a feeling in your heart, please say so. So then we can discuss whether a feeling in your heart is good enough evidence of whatever it is you believe.
Everybody, if you have some kind of supernatural/paranormal/metaphysical belief, please state your belief, and then present whatever evidence you have that your belief is true.
Im sorry, but again here are three threads you should look into.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22307
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22411
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22391
Post #52
Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.no evidence no belief wrote:What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?AdHoc wrote: And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?
Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!
Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?
Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.
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Post #53
Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.AdHoc wrote:Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.no evidence no belief wrote:What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?AdHoc wrote: And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?
Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!
Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?
Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.
So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.
What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?
Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.
But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.
So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.
Post #54
Hey I told you what I believed and you said you would say what you expected for evidence... Or at least that's what I thought.no evidence no belief wrote:Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.AdHoc wrote:Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.no evidence no belief wrote:What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?AdHoc wrote: And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?
Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!
Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?
Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.
So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.
What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?
Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.
But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.
So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.
Can you tell me what you expect for evidence?
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Post #55
Ok, that's fine.AdHoc wrote:Hey I told you what I believed and you said you would say what you expected for evidence... Or at least that's what I thought.no evidence no belief wrote:Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.AdHoc wrote:Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.no evidence no belief wrote:What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?AdHoc wrote: And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?
Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!
Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?
Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.
Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.
So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.
What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?
Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.
But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.
So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.
Can you tell me what you expect for evidence?
Please provide evidence that everything we know about biology, chemistry and physics is completely 100% wrong.
Because every single subbranch of biology, chemistry and physics unanimously and concurrently agree, through repeatable empirical experimentation done over centuries by millions of people who dedicated their life to truth, that decomposing bodies do NOT come back to life.
Therefore either Matthew 27 is wrong, or science is fundamentally wrong.
So please provide evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false, and explain why it is that satellites stay in orbit, people with polio vaccine never catch polio, and you are able to instantly read this message I typed from my own house, if science is fundamentally false.
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Post #56
I was on my break at workbernee51 wrote:Have you dried out yet? Thinking arks?Mithrae wrote:Let's see what I can manage in 10 minutes for a laugh...

Paul believed that the fellow had been born a Jew (Gal. 3/4), had brothers (1 Cor. 9, Gal. 1), was crucified, rose to life and appeared to various people (1 Cor. 15). Obviously Paul himself isn't a direct/credible witness of Jesus' life or resurrection, but as a contemporary of Jesus and his followers who had for some reason radically re-evaluated his initial hostility towards the movement, we can reasonably entertain the possibility that he didn't do so based solely on lies and fairy tales.bernee51 wrote:What cannot be dismissd out of hand is Paul's belief. Paul's belief says nothing about the existence or otherwise of the Jesus of the gospels.Mithrae wrote:Jesus was said to be the Messiah. Paul by his own account first persecuted that movement, then converted to become one of its major evangelists (Galations 1). We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason to not dismiss Jesus out of hand.
Perhaps they arebernee51 wrote:The Vedas have been around for longer, they to self claim to be eternal, and divinely revealed.Mithrae wrote:Jesus is alleged to have said that 'til heaven and earth pass away, his words would not be lost (Mark 13 etc.). When Mark was written, Christianity was an insignificant Jewish/Gentile cult suffering sporadic persecution. But 2000 years later, Jesus' words remain..

It's certainly not the perfect fit that Christians would like (not without inventing a 360-day 'prophetic year' at leastbernee51 wrote:I won't speak to this...but I know that Goat has views, opinions etc on the efficacy of DanielMithrae wrote:Around the 6th century BCE, the Jewish visionary Daniel wrote that 7 and 62 'sevens' after a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, a 'messiah' would be 'cut off,' which would be followed by the destruction of the temple. The only recorded decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the Tanakh is in Nehemiah 2 (c. 446 BCE) - 62 sevens later is around 18 BCE, when Herod began his majestic temple upgrades, and 7 sevens after that is around 32 CE... Those figures are wrong, but I don't have time to calculate properly. There is a less than 1% margin of error for the vision to be fulfilled by Jesus. And shortly afterwards, the Jewish temple was indeed destroyed (70CE).

Disciple as in a personal follower and witness. The gospel and epistle don't specifically name John as the follower/witness who wrote them - the self-references are to a 'disciple who Jesus loved' - though obviously John is the most common view among Christians. That's circumstantially supported by the fact the synoptics, Acts and Paul name Peter and John as the most prominent disciples, but the fourth gospel names only Peter and this 'beloved disciple' (and does not name the synoptics' third key disciple, John's executed brother James).bernee51 wrote:Self claimed? Does disciple mean a direct disciple? or one who follows...as in I am a disciple of Ramana Maharshi...that does not mean I knew him personally.Mithrae wrote:The gospel of John was written by a disciple of Jesus (stated in 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14, 19:35, and confirmed in the appendix); so too, allegedly, was 1 Peter, and the gospel of Mark was believed to have been written by Peter's interpretor (a plausible conclusion). John's brother James was executed by Herod for his membership of the Christian sect (Acts 8 or so), and Peter was allegedly imprisoned.
Besides, self referencing biblical stories as evidence of their veracity would seem to be rather illogical.
These weren't "biblical stories" when they were written; they were just Christian writings about their founder and the movement's beginnings. Who would know better than them?
I think it's obvious that some of what they wrote was not factual, and in some cases was probably not intended to be considered factual either; for example Matthew's nativity story was constructed specifically to draw parallels between Jesus and Moses. But Mark's brief ending to his gospel offers no such suggestion of embellishment; and while John was writing theology more than history, his 'doubting Thomas' story suggests that the resurrection was certainly meant to be considered factual. (Paul also names the truth of the resurrection as a central and necessary doctrine of his faith.)bernee51 wrote:I do not doubt that the writers of the gospels wrote what they believed and believed what they wrote...performative utterances is what i believe this phenomenon is called. Does this mean all they wrote is factual?Mithrae wrote: But despite those risks of persecution, Peter/Mark continued to declare the resurrection of Jesus. Peter was killed in Rome under Nero's persecution. But despite the execution of his brother and his friend Peter, even John continued to declare the resurrection in his gospel.
As for whether they might have been simply incorrect or deluded, it's certainly possible. No Evidence No Belief asked for evidence, without specifying what kind of evidence, so I figured I'd have a bash at obliging him. In light of
- Paul's conversion,
- Jesus/Mark's quite remarkable prediction of the durability of his words,
- and the extremely remarkable coincidence the Jewish temple has been destroyed only once in the 2500+ years since Daniel's vision and as predicted it was shortly after the death of a notable alleged 'messiah' in roughly the right time-frame
...it could be argued that there's enough background circumstances suggesting Jesus was not your average, run-of-the-mill cult leader. Are the claims of two disciples, in the face of persecution for themselves and those close to them, that he had in fact risen from the dead absolute proof that it actually occurred? Obviously not. Probably not even enough to convince NENB - I'm rather sceptical myself.
But it is evidence

Re: Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?
Post #57It was great chance for the disbelievers to destroy to finish the religion of Islam , and to prove that prophet Mohammad was lying . especially when you know the circumstances of the Muslims and prophet Mohammad during this event :no evidence no belief wrote:
If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?
Can you PLEASE provide evidence?
1-The story happened in the beginning of the message of Islam .
2-The Muslims were very weak and facing all types of the torment . most of them were slaves .
3-It happened in the land of the disbelievers and before the migration of Muslims .
What was the story ? : in one night prophet Mohammad traveled from Makkah [ Baca ] to Jerusalem then he went up to seventh heaven , and return at the same night .
At the morning prophet Mohammad told the disbelievers about this journey . they laughed and mocked him . and claimed that he is a liar .
At the same time prophet Mohammad replied them by :
1- Describing Jerusalem , the disbelievers knew that prophet Mohammad did not visit Jerusalem before .
2-He told them about the location of caravan which belongs to the disbelievers .
at the same day the story finished .. and the disbelievers never mention the story again .because they knew that prophet Mohammad was speaking the truth .
then after 1400 year , the atheists think they are smart and very logical people . blowing up everything and claiming they are looking for evidences . the evidences in front of their eyes , but they insist to be blind . so do not think you are smarter than the disbelievers during the time of the prophets . they tried everything to defeat the prophets , they used every dirty trick to mislead the people and to make them return from faith .
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If the time takes you back before 5000 years . at the place of the atheist Pharaoh and his viziers beside him . and you were holding a MP3 recorder , then you gave Pharaoh MP3 recorder to listen to the songs . also you recorded his voice then he heard it . Pharaoh and his viziers will consider you a liar or a sorcerer , because they saw the signs of Allah and his miracles which were greater and more clear than the MP3 recorder .
You and Pharaoh are the same : two faces for the same coin [ disbelievers ] . because his mind linked with the knowledge in his time only and his arrogance . and your mind linked by the knowledge in our time only and your arrogance . The brains of atheists will reach where the knowledge reached . for example :
If the science did not discover the waves . the atheists will not believe in the existence of waves and If the science did not notice the gravity . the atheists will not believe in the existence of gravity .
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By knowledge the mankind were looking for different methods to transport the commodities and shorten the times of journeys . the results of the researches and the knowledge are what we see now : trains, cars , ships , airplanes , spaceships , …… and the human still looking for higher speeds . one of the high speeds is sending messages and reports via internet .
But because the brains of the atheist closed … they do not give themselves a few minutes to ponder about the greatest force . the absolute knowledge Allah who subjected everything for the mankind to help him to make the cars , the ships and many wonderful devices . [ungrateful people ] .
The heritage of knowledge from the first human to the end of the universe is nothing to Allah's knowledge . and the inventions of the mankind from the first man to the end of the universe will not be more difficult than the creation of one fly .
73. O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought. 74. They have not estimated Allah His Rightful Estimate; Verily, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty.
To Allah belongs all-knowledge . and to him all my praise .
((8. And (He has created) horses, mules and donkeys, for you to ride and as an adornment. And He creates (other) things of which you have no knowledge. )) Surah 16 .
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Post #58
@Steps
I wouldn't be hard for anyone in that region back then to be able to describe Jerusalem to some extent. Since Jerusalem was a huge center for commerce and travel, he definitely heard stories about it. Please provide how he described it. Did he describe things that he couldn't have heard or seen from textiles or drawings or even word of mouth? When you think of it like that it is not impressive.
I wouldn't be hard for anyone in that region back then to be able to describe Jerusalem to some extent. Since Jerusalem was a huge center for commerce and travel, he definitely heard stories about it. Please provide how he described it. Did he describe things that he couldn't have heard or seen from textiles or drawings or even word of mouth? When you think of it like that it is not impressive.
Post #59
I think the particular 'this is the evidence we require to believe the zombie plague, got some?' case deserves it's own topic. I'm interested in Adhoc's reply but I fear for some obfuscation and dodging, always willing to be shown wrong ofcourse...
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Re: Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?
Post #60What makes you think the discription presented here is accurate? Why can't the whole incident be made up? Christianity have simular stories where doubters challenged Jesus' resurrection and then convinced.steps wrote: What was the story ? : in one night prophet Mohammad traveled from Makkah [ Baca ] to Jerusalem then he went up to seventh heaven , and return at the same night .
At the morning prophet Mohammad told the disbelievers about this journey . they laughed and mocked him . and claimed that he is a liar .
at the same day the story finished .. and the disbelievers never mention the story again .because they knew that prophet Mohammad was speaking the truth .
Smarter? Maybe not. But I am demonstrably more knowledgeable than they were, besides, these so called disbelievers were probably pagans and not atheists.so do not think you are smarter than the disbelievers during the time of the prophets .