Crucific-xion or Cruci-fiction

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mms20102
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Crucific-xion or Cruci-fiction

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

Completing the sit of debates I have started , this is the most controversial one

First debate was " Is Jesus God ?! " Majority agreement was " He is not " you can check here http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30328

Second debate was Is Bible the word of god ?! " we got 2 major opinions :

1- Its not pure god revelation and its edited .

2- Some said its not a holybook and only human writings " which I personally oppose "

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30350

This debate will be third and its about was Jesus crucified ?

<<<<<<<<<Debate Rules >>>>>>>>>

1- Don't spam ideas with no proof or source
2- Don't argue the first 2 topics except in its original posts
3- Don't argue about the existence of Jesus or god its not our topic
4- Try to answer questions given to you before giving new ones or we will go to endless debate
5- If I don't know is your answer please learn then come and debate we don't need judges we need players
6- Stick to forum rules

Good Luck Everyone :D

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Re: Crucific-xion or Cruci-fiction

Post #2

Post by marco »

mms20102 wrote:

This debate will be third and its about was Jesus crucified ?
In his work, the Annals, Tacitus makes the statement: auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat

The author, Christ by name, suffered the supreme penalty, while Tiberius ruled, at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate....

Pilate was a governor or prefect but there are justifications for Tacitus, who had access to Roman records, for calling him procurator. Some believe the passage is corrupt, and possibly subject to later amendment. But be that as it may, we have a statement that Christ was crucified.

Interesting to note that GB Shaw referred to the teachings of Paul as Crosstianity and those of Christ as Christianity, meaning that Paul built up his theology from his own fabricated ideas of atonement and death on a cross.

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Post #3

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the OP:
...
<<<<<<<<<Debate Rules >>>>>>>>>
...
The rules of debate are in place for each subforoom of this site, with moderators ruling on which rules it is we break or not. I'll not be bound by the 'rulings' of pretend moderators.
...
3- Don't argue about the existence of Jesus or god its not our topic
...
I propose that without establishing the existence of 'em, folks is goofy to claim they know anything about 'em.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #4

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to post 3 by JoeyKnothead]

some how people start some random discussions just like before in fact the point of debating is to answer your debater questions other than jump around with no point to give in the first post I suffered from 2 types first insist to prove the existence of god the second insists on his opinion now if I will not be committed to reply your questions or prove you are wrong then why I'm debating ?

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Re: Crucific-xion or Cruci-fiction

Post #5

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to mms20102]
mms20102 wrote: Second debate was Is Bible the word of god ?! " we got 2 major opinions :

1- Its not pure god revelation and its edited .

2- Some said its not a holybook and only human writings " which I personally oppose "
If the Bible is "pure god revelation" it should necessarily therefore be purely and wholly true in everything it says. If it has been "edited" by humans, then some minor scribal errors might be excusable, but certainly nothing major. Wouldn't you agree?

On the other hand, if the Bible is purely a work derived from the minds of men, then actual places where the Bible simply got it wrong, if any existed, would serve as an incontrovertible sign that the Bible is entirely of human origin, and not derived from God at all. Wouldn't you also agree?

So, is the Bible free from significant error as one would reasonably expect of a work of "pure god revelation," or can it be demonstrated that there instances where the Bible flatly got it wrong?
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

I accept that Jesus existed, and that the Bible is a valid expression of the Word of God, if not perfect.

I know that is not what you want to debate on this thread.

Regarding the crucifixion, can you summarize for us the Muslim rationale that Jesus was not crucified, when most non-Muslim historians and theologians believe that he was?

Even secular historians believe that a first century preacher/Rabbi known as "Jesus of Nazareth" was crucified.

As far as I can tell, only Muslims believe that he was not.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Crucific-xion or Cruci-fiction

Post #7

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

mms20102 wrote: Completing the sit of debates I have started , this is the most controversial one

First debate was " Is Jesus God ?! " Majority agreement was " He is not " you can check here http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30328

Second debate was Is Bible the word of god ?! " we got 2 major opinions :

1- Its not pure god revelation and its edited .

2- Some said its not a holybook and only human writings " which I personally oppose "

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30350

This debate will be third and its about was Jesus crucified ?

<<<<<<<<<Debate Rules >>>>>>>>>

1- Don't spam ideas with no proof or source
2- Don't argue the first 2 topics except in its original posts
3- Don't argue about the existence of Jesus or god its not our topic
4- Try to answer questions given to you before giving new ones or we will go to endless debate
5- If I don't know is your answer please learn then come and debate we don't need judges we need players
6- Stick to forum rules

Good Luck Everyone :D
Some people deny that Jesus even existed, and claim that the entire story is a myth. Others accept that Jesus existed, but deny that Jesus was crucified. The entire religion of Islam, for example.

"That they said (in boast) "We have killed Christ Jesus the
son of Mary, the apostle of Allah";-- but they killed him not,
nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and
those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain)
knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they
killed him not:--" (Koran, Su 4:157).

So if one happens to be a Muslim there is no question that Jesus WAS NOT crucified.

On the other hand, crucifixions of non Roman citizens by the Romans is well attested to historically. So there is no reason to question the story of the crucifixion based in plausibility. It's when we reach the point in the story that the corpse of Jesus returns to life and then subsequently flies away that we encounter severe plausibility problems. Christians proclaim that this was an act of God, and God can do anything. But this is simply a case of declaring to be true that which they are attempting to establish.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #8

Post by mms20102 »

"That they said (in boast) "We have killed Christ Jesus the
son of Mary, the apostle of Allah";-- but they killed him not,
nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and
those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain)
knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they
killed him not:--" (Koran, Su 4:157).

this is the view of quran now I will give a chain of evidence from the bible

In any event, if there is any division between a Muslim and a Christian on the grounds of
dogma, belief, ethics or morality, then the cause of such conflict could be traced to an utterance of Paul found in his books of Corinthians, Phillipians, Galatians, Thessolanians, etc., in the Bible.
As against the teaching of the Master (Jesus) that salvation only comes through keeping of
the commandments (Mathew 19:16-17), Paul nails the law and the commandments to the
cross (Colossians 2:14)1, and claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death
and resurrection of Jesus Christ:-

"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and
your faith is also vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:14)

According to St. Paul, there is nothing that Christianity can offer mankind, other than the
blood and gore of Jesus. If Jesus did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead,
then there can be NO salvation in Christianity! "For all your good deeds", says the
Christian dogmatist, "are like filthy rags" - (Isaiah 64:6).

I will call up your witnesses and cross examine them to discover the truth or falsity of the matter

The amazing thing about the Christians' sworn affidavits (writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) is that not a single one of them is duly attested. Not a single one bears the signature, mark or thumb-print of its author in the so-called originals. They now boast of being in possession of over 5000 "originals" of which no two "originals" are identical.

The translators of the
"New International Version" have unceremoniously expunged the "According to's" from the four Gospels in their latest translation. Of the alleged Gospel writers, viz., Matthew, Mark, Luke and John it can be categorically stated that 50% were not even the elected Twelve Disciples of Jesus .

"All his disciples forsook him and fled" - (Mark 14:50).

"Does all mean all in your language ?"
..........................................

On the eve of the Passover Feast, Jesus and his twelve disciples are seated around a huge table with their host - the "beloved disciple", whose name also happened to be JOHN. There were at least 14 men at the table (count them if you wish)



The furtive looks and the suspicious behaviour of Judas had revealed everything to Jesus (pbuh). He did not need the Holy Ghost to interpret the misgivings in Judas's mind. At the Table in the Upper-room where Jesus and his disciples were having that "Last Supper", Jesus dismissed Judas with the words:
". . . What thou doest, do quickly."
(John 13:27)

Jesus will not be a sitting-duck for a clandestine arrest by the Jews. He prepares his disciples for the impending showdown. Discreetly, so as not to frighten his disciples, he introduces the subject of defence. Gently he begins:
"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing."
Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
(Luke 22:35-36)
The situation and the circumstance have changed and as with any wise and able general, the strategy must also change. The disciples were already armed. They had some foresight. They had not left Galilee with bare knuckles. They responded:
". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".
(Luke 22:38)
If this was a preparation for war, then why should two swords be "enough"? The reason is that Jesus was not contemplating a battle against the legions of Rome. Since his "friend" Judas was in league with the Temple authorities, he was expecting a clandestine, underhand attempt by the Jewish oligarchy to seize him. It would be a question of Jews against Jews. In such a battle against the Jewish temple servants and the riff-raff of the town, he would prevail. Of that he was sure. He had with him Peter (the Rock) and John and James (the sons of Thunder) together with the other eight, each vying with one another to go to prison for him; to die for him.1 These were all Galilians. They had a reputation of Zealotism, terrorism, and repeated insurrections against the Romans.

He leads his disciples , in the middle of the night, to Gethsemane. Gethsemane - an olive press - a courtyard built of stone walls some 5 miles out of town then he placed eight of the eleven disciples at the entrance to the courtyard, commanding them:

". . . Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder."
(Matthew 26:36 )

The question that would bug any thinker is: "Why did they all go to Gethsemane? To pray?
Could they not have prayed in the upper-room? Could they not have gone to the Temple of Solomon, a stone's throw from where they were, if prayer is all that they wanted to do? ..

They went to the Garden so that they might be in a better position to defend themselves!
"And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee. . . Then saith he unto them. . . tarry ye here and watch with me."
(Matthew 26:37-38 )

To make an inner line of defence - he had put eight at the Gate, and, now these zealous Zealots (the fighting Irishmen of their day), armed with SWORDS, to "wait and watch" - " TO KEEP GUARD! "
". . . and began to be sorrowful and very depressed. Then saith he unto them, 'my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death' . . ."
"And he went a little further, and fell on his face (Exactly as the Muslim does in Salaat), and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt'." (This is the quality of a good Muslim who submits his will to the will of God).
(Matthew 26:37-39)

"And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was,
as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
(Luke 22:44)

Strange as it may sound, after every outpouring of prayer, Jesus Christ found his disciples asleep at their post. Again and again he bewailed: "What could ye not watch with me for one hour?" - (Matthew 26:40). "And again he (Jesus) went away, and prayed, and spoke the same words. And when he returned, he found them sleep again . . ." - (Mark 14:39-40).
"neither knew they what to answer him", - (Mark 14:40).
The Christian scholars in their translations of the Bible. They have changed the words "Roman soldiers" to simply "soldiers" and from the word soldiers to now "band of men" and "the guard".
"Judas then, having received a BAND OF MEN1 and officers from the chief
priests and Pharisees, cometh there with lanterns and torches and
weapons."
(John 18:3)
Only one of the disciples of Christ had the presence of mind to ask:
". . . Master, shall we smite them with the sword?"
(Luke 22:49)
But before Jesus could attempt a reply, the impetuous Peter struck out with his sword and cut off the right ear of one of the enemy. ". . . Put up again thy sword into its place; for all they that TAKE THE SWORD shall PERISH WITH THE SWORD."
(Matthew 26:52)
Jesus had sense enough to realize that against trained and well-equipped Roman soldiers it would be suicidal for his sleepy warriors to offer even a pretense of resistance

"AND THEY ALL FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED."
(Mark 14:50)

Professor Momerie succinctly sums up the "Disciples" and their response to the Master:
"HIS IMMEDIATE DISCIPLES WERE ALWAYS MISUNDERSTANDING HIM AND HIS WORKS. WANTING HIM TO DECLARE HIMSELF KING OF THE JEWS: WANTING HIM TO CALL DOWN FIRE FROM HEAVEN, WANTING TO SIT ON HIS RIGHT HAND AND ON HIS LEFT HAND IN HIS KINGDOM; WANTING HIM TO SHOW THEM THE FATHER, TO MAKE GOD VISIBLE TO THEIR BODILY EYES: WANTING HIM TO DO, AND WANTING TO DO THEMSELVES, ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT WAS INCOMPATIBLE WITH HIS GREAT PLAN. THIS WAS HOW THEY TREATED HIM UNTIL THE END. AND WHEN THAT CAME, THEY ALL FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED."

The Jews could not get even two to agree1 in their allegations! "But neither did their
witness agree together" - (Mark 14:59). His argument was so potent that an officer
standing by was provoked to strike him in silence. Did that intimidate Jesus? No! Instead, he protested further:
". . . if I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil. But if well, why smitest thou me?"
(John 18:23)
The victim was slipping out from between their fingers. It was now or never. Legally they could not incriminate him. Direct intervention was necessary. The High Priest interjects with a side thrust. Tell us then:
". . . Art thou the Christ, the son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am . . ."
(Mark 14:61-62)
The High Priest was exultant. He felt that his rapier thrust had ripped open the defence of Jesus. To dramatise his contrived victory, he began renting his clothes. "What need have we for any further witnesses? And they all condemned
him to be guilty of death." - (Mark 14:63-64).
In the morning they took their victim to Pontius Pilate, because, as they said: "It is not lawful for us (Jews) to put any man to death". - (John 18:31).
". . . We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give
tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ, a king."
(Luke 23:2)

Jesus was led "to the slaughter like a lamb, like a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth" - (Isaiah 53:7).

"Crucify him, crucify him!". "Pilate took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man." - (Matthew 27:24).
You are culpable for this unjust crime. And he handed Jesus over to be crucified.

ORIGINS OF CRUCIFIXION :-
Crucifixion was the common mode of eliminating political prisoners, murderers and
insurgents. Long before the birth of Jesus, the Phoenicians had experimented with various methods to get rid of their anti-social characters. They had tried hanging, impaling, stoning, drowning, etc. But all these were too quick in their effects; the culprits expired too soon for their liking. So they invented the crucifixion, a system which produced a slow L-I-N-G-E-R-IN-G death.

TWO METHODS OF CRUCIFIXION
The Romans borrowed and perfected the system. They developed a crucifixion for fast death and disposal, and another for a slow death and disposal.
The Christian Masters1 are confused in their paintings of the gruesome scene. They portray the two robbers2 who were simultaneously crucified with Jesus, his "crossmates", one on his right hand and the other on his left hand, as undergoing the FAST method, whereas Jesus himself is painted as undergoing a S-L-O-W process.
The Romans never combined these two different methods. They were never confused, as the Christian artists were, with the fast and the slow methods. The Old Masters have painted hybrid crosses (mixture) of the "fast" and "slow" methods in their drawings of Jesus' bodily supports on the cross - i.e. with Saddle or without
Saddle either nails or leather thongs to bind the arms to the crossbar; and, either platforms to support the feet, or spikes
Contrary to common belief, Jesus was not nailed to the cross, but bound, if at all, like the other two. In the light of the knowledge available, we must regard the "Doubting Thomas" episode as a flagrant "gospel fabrication", similar to the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery.
The Jews were in extreme haste to have Jesus done away with. Remember the midnight trial? Early in the morning, they dragged him to Pilate. From Pilate to Herod. From Herod back to Pilate. According to a boisterous American (another "born-again") there were "SIX" trials within twelve hours.
According to the Gospel writers, the Jews and the Romans managed to have Jesus on the cross by the 6th hour, that is by 12 noon; and by the 9th hour1, that is, by 3 o'clock he had given up the ghost - " he had died (?) "
Strange people, these Jews! As much as they were in a hurry to mount
Jesus on the cross, no sooner had they succeeded, they were once more agitated to bring him down. Can you imagine why? Their religious scruples - the Sabbath! They were warned in the "fifth Book of Moses":
"His body (any crucified person) shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day, (for he that is hanged is accursed of God), that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
(Deuteronomy 21:23)
To appease the religious scruples of the Jews (or for any other reason) if it became necessary to expedite death on the cross, the executioners resorted to the "cruri-fragium", a club like horror with which the legs were broken. The victim expired by suffocation within the hour. This was the fast method.
.............................................

This drawing is an attempt at a more accurate representation of the "execution" of Jesus. To check his ideas the artist Charles Pickard, actually maneuvered himself into this position.
.............................................

"Who, in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was HEARD in that he feared."
(Hebrews 5:7)

(a) An assurance from Heaven.
(b) Pilate finds him, not guilty!
(c) His wife shown a dream in which she is told that no harm should
come to Jesus.
(d) Legs not broken!
(e) In a hurry to bring him down from the cross.

The fourth above: "and they brake not his legs", we are told was in fulfilment of a
prophecy:

"He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken."
(Psalm 34:20)

If the bones of a victim were to be protected from harm, then they could only be of benefit if the person was ALIVE! For a person, already dead, intact bones mean nothing. Whether they are sawed into pieces, or smashed into smithereens, it will not make any difference to the resurrected body, the spirit or the ghost. But for living persons on the cross (like the "crossmates" of Jesus), the breaking of the legs made all the difference between life and death.
Their reason was that they "SAW that he was dead already, they brake not his legs". - (John 19:33)
"SAW" is a very simple word. We may yet ask, what did they see? Could it be the fulfilment of the words of Christ: "seeing, ye shall see and shall not perceive" - (Matthew 13:14).
When John says that the soldiers "saw", he means that they surmised. For no modern-day stethoscope was used to verify death; nor did anyone touch his body or feel his pulse before concluding that "he was dead already". I see in the word "saw" another step in God's plan of rescue.
GOD inspires the soldiers to think that the victim is "dead already" so as not to break his legs, but at the same time inspires another to lance him on the side1 with a spear, and . . .
". . . FORTHWITH came there out blood and water."
(John 19:34)

Dean Farrar, in his "Life of Christ", says on page 421, that "JESUS WAS ON THE CROSS
FOR ONLY THREE HOURS - WHEN TAKEN DOWN".

"Pilate marvelled if he were already dead, and calling to him the
centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead."
(Mark 15:44)

He knew from experience that normally no man would die within 3 hours on the cross, unless the "crurifragium" was resorted to, which was not done in the case of Jesus; unlike in that of his "crossmates", who were given the treatment because
they were still ALIVE!
Why he marvels ?!

It stands to reason, that if a man faces a firing squad, and shots are fired into his body, and he dies, there would be nothing to "marvel" about. If a person is taken to the gallows and is hanged, and he dies, there is nothing to "marvel" about.
His "secret" disciples, Joseph of Arimathe'a and Nicodemus, would never have been heard of had it not been for Jesus' ordeal. And they were the only persons to handle the body of Jesus, with Mary Magdalene and the other Mary(s)2 as the only
spectators. To satisfy the religious scruples of the Jews - the burial bath, the anointing and the shrouding- would well-nigh have taken more than two hours. If there were any signs of life in the limpbody, no one was foolish enough to shout to the retreating curiosity mongers: "He is ALIVE! He is ALIVE! They knew that the Jews would then make doubly sure that that life was snuffed out.

We must not suppose that Jesus was buried 6 feet underground. The sepulchre was a big,airy chamber and not a grave. Jim Bishop (a Christian authority of note), in his book "TheDay Christ Died", gives the dimensions as 5 feet wide by 7 feet high by 15 feet deep, with a ledge or ledges inside

(a) The tomb within easy reach.
(b) Helping hands of his "secret" disciples.
(c) His "crossmates" still alive.
(d) His legs not broken, whereas those of his "crossmates" were!
(e) Quick and easy permission granted by Pilate to obtain the body of Jesus.

with all of those 5 points any one can suspect the death of jesus

"Now the NEXT day . . . the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said . . . Command, therefore, that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest . . . the LAST error shall be worse than the FIRST."
(Matthew 27:62-64)

What was the FIRST "error" that the Jews made in wanting to eliminate Jesus? The first was that they had permitted Jesus to be brought down from the cross without breaking his legs, under the false assumption that he had died. The LAST would be to allow the "secret" disciples of Jesus to render help to the wounded man, by NOT sealing off the tomb. But in the meantime, they made another mistake by approaching Pilate the "NEXT" day which was TOO LATE!

It was Sunday morning, the FIRST day of the week, according to Hebrew calculations, with Saturday the Sabbath as the seventh, when Mary Magdalene alone (Mark 16:9 and John 20:1) visited the tomb of Jesus.
The question arises: "Why did she go there?" "TO ANOINT HIM", Mark 16:1 tells us. The Hebrew word for anoint is "masaha", which means to rub, to massage, to anoint.

The second
question is: "Do Jews massage dead bodies after 3 days?" The answer is "No!" "Do the Christians massage dead bodies after 3 days?" The answer is again, "No!" Do the Muslims (who are the nearest to the Jews in their ceremonial laws) massage dead bodies after 3 days? And the answer is again, "No!" Then why should a Jewess want to massage a dead, decaying body after 3 days?
In 3 days time, the body would be fermenting from within - the body cells
would be breaking up and decomposing. If anyone rubs such a decaying body, it will fall to pieces. Does the rubbing make sense? No!

It would, however, make sense if she was looking for a LIVE person. You see, she was about the only person besides Joseph of Arimathe'a and Nicodemus who had given the final rites to the body of Jesus. If she had seen any sign of life in the limp body of Jesus when he was taken down from the cross, she was not going to shout, "HE IS ALIVE!" She returns after 2 nights and a day, when the Jewish Sabbath had passed, to take care of Jesus.

She was sorely amazed to find on arrival, that somebody had already removed the stone and, on peeping into the tomb, she finds that the winding sheets (shroud) were folded up inside. More questions arise? "Why was the stone removed?" Because for a resurrected body, one which had conquered death, it was not necessary for the stone to be removed for it to get out, nor was it necessary for the winding sheets to be unwound for it to move. Because, for a spiritualised body: "STONE WALLS DO NOT A PRISON MAKE, NOR IRON BARS A CAGE."The removal of the stone and the unwinding of the winding sheets was the need of a physically resuscitated body, not that of a resurrected1 body! The empty tomb was an anti-climax to what she had expected! So the hysterical woman (Jesus had had to cast out of her "seven devils" - Mark 16:9) breaks down and sobs. Jesus was all the while watching her from the vicinity - not from heaven, but from earth. This burial vault (tomb) was a privately-owned property belonging to Joseph of Arimathe'a (a very rich, influential Jew), who could afford to carve out of rock the big roomy chamber Around this tomb was his vegetable garden. Please do not try to tell me that this Jew was so generous that he was planting vegetables 5 miles out of town, for other people's goats and sheep to graze upon. Surely, he must also have built gardeners' quarters for his laborers and his own country home for himself and his family to relax during the week-ends?

Jesus is there! He is watching this woman. He knows who she is, and he knows why she is there. He approaches her from behind, and finds her crying. So he asks her:
"Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? - (John 20:15).
knows that this woman is looking for him, and she is disappointed on not finding him; hence the weeping. But he also knows that because of his heavy disguise she would not be able to recognize him. So metaphorically speaking he is pulling her leg. In describing this incident John, referring to Mary Magdalene, says: "She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him". Now why should she suppose that he is a ardener? Do resurrected persons look like "gardeners"? No!! Then why does she suppose him to be a gardener? Because he is disguised as a GARDENER! Why is he disguised as a gardener? Because he is afraid of the Jews! Why is he afraid of the Jews? Because he did not die and did not conquer death! If he had died, and if he had conquered death, then he would not be afraid anymore. Why not?
Because a resurrected body cannot die twice! Who says so? The Bible says so. Where? In the
Book of Hebrews 9:27. It says:
". . . it is ordained unto all men ONCE to die, and after that the
judgement."

"Sir, if you have taken HIM hence, tell me where have you laid HIM . . .
(John 20:15)

She is not looking for a corpse, for "it". She is looking for a LIVE person, for "HIM". And further, she wants to know as to "where have you 'LAID' him?" (i.e. To rest, to relax, to recuperate!) NOT, "where have you BURIED him?"

"So that I might take HIM away."
(John 20:15)

Take HIM away, where? What would she want with a dead (?), decomposing body? She could only bury it. carrying a corpse of at least a hundred and sixty
pounds. That weight plus another 100 pounds of medicants (according to John 19:39) would make a neat load of 260 pounds. Carrying would be one thing, but burying? She would have to dump it in a hole! Does it make any sense?
"M-A-R-Y!" Only the one word! But it was enough. This one word, "Mary!" did what all
the exchange of words failed to do. It enabled Mary to recognise her Master. Everyone hashis or her unique and peculiar way of calling one's nearest and dearest. It was not the mere utterance of the word "Mary", but its deliberate intonation which made her respond: "Master! Master!". Mad with happiness, she lunges forward to grab her Master, to pay reverence. Jesus says :

"Touch me not!"
(John 20:17)

because it would hurt. Though he appears normal to all intents and purposes, he had, nevertheless, been through a violent, physical and emotional ordeal. It would be excruciatingly painful if he allowed her any enthusiastic contact. Jesus continues:

"For I am not yet ASCENDED unto my Father."
(John 20:17)

He is, in fact, telling her that he is not RESURRECTED from the DEAD. In the language of the Jew, in the idiom of the Jew, he is saying: "I AM NOT DEAD YET!" - He is saying: "I AM ALIVE!"
"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had
been seen by her (Mary Magdalene), they BELIEVED NOT."
(Mark 16:11)
after meeting 2 of his disciples
"And it came to pass, as he sat EATING with them, he took bread and
blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to them."
(Luke 24:30)

By the manner in which he brake bread (meaning the way he blessed it), "their eyes were opened". Did they walk from Jerusalem to Emmaus with closed eyes? No! We are being told that the disciples recognized him only at that juncture. Luke continues with his story, that when they recognized him .

"And they went and told it unto the residue (of the disciples), NEITHER
BELEIVED they them."
(Mark 16:13)

The problem is that they are confronted with evidence that Jesus is ALIVE! Not resurrected (i.e. not spiritualised), but evidence that he is the same physical Jesus, flesh and bones as any one of them! - Eating food! In disguise - but not a spirit and not a ghost. This is what they could not believe. If they were told that Mary had seen the ghost of Jesus, they would have believed. If the above two had told the rest that they too had seen the ghost of Jesus, they would certainly have believed that. They were a people who had seen spirits going into pigs and stampeding two thousand of them to destruction - (Mark 5:13). They had seen spirits going into trees and drying them up from their very roots overnight - (Mark 11:20). They had seen "seven devils" coming out of Mary Magdalene - (Mark 16:9). All this was quite natural to their age. Spirits, ghosts and devils! They could accept that which was believable at that time and age. But a LIVE Jesus? A physical Jesus? One who had escaped the stings of death - (Acts 2:24)? This was too heavy for them-
(Matthew 6:30; 8:26; 14:31; 16:8; and Luke 12:28).

(a) Mary Magdalene testifies that Jesus is
ALIVE.1
(b) The disciples from Emmaus testify that
he is ALIVE!
(c) Angels said that Jesus was ALIVE!
(Luke 24:23).
(d) Two men that stood by told the women
"why seek ye the living among the
dead?" That he is ALIVE! (Luke 24:4-5).

The two from Emmaus, "rose . . . and returned to Jerusalem, and found the ELEVEN
gathered together, and those who were with them - (Luke 24:33).
can you count now ?
................................................
"Peace be unto you", he cried; but his little lambs "were terrified!"
(Luke 24:36-37)

Remember at the break of dawn that very morning, a lone woman, Mary Magdalene, was
mad with glee on recognising him around the tomb. And she had to be stopped in her stride
from embracing him. But these ten heroes who were rattling sabres in this very room were now petrified on recognising their Master. Why was there opposite reactions between the men and the woman? - Men terrified, woman not afraid? The reason is that the woman was an eye-witness to all the happenings around calvary, whereas the men were nowhere in sight. Therefore the woman went to the tomb with the intention of meeting a LIVE Jesus, and her joy on meeting him. But the ten were not witnesses to the happenings, hence their supposition about seeing a ghost. They were physically and emotionally on the verge of breaking down. Luke succinctly describes their condition:
"But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen
a spirit."
(Luke 24:37)
After the due greetings of "Shaloam", Jesus begins calming the disciples' fear for taking him to be a ghost. He says:
"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am
the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have. . . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."
(Luke 24:39-40)

What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That he was a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is I MYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh and bones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have to convince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone will acknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!

"Have you here any meat", i.e. anything to eat? "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and DID EAT before them." To prove what? That he is RESURRECTED? Why does he not then say so instead of proving everything to the contrary? Presenting his physical body for examination, eating and masticating "broiled fish and honeycomb". Is all this an act, a pretence, a make-believe, another "leela" as the Hindus might say? "No!" Said Schleliermacher a hundred-and-sixty-five years ago. Albert Schweizer in his book, "In Quest of the Historical Jesus", page 64 quotes him:-

"IF CHRIST HAD ONLY EATEN TO SHOW THAT HE COULD EAT, WHILE HE REALLY
HAD NO NEED OF NOURISHMENT, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PRETENCE -
SOMETHING DOCETIC."

..............................................

". . . An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign (miracle), and
there shall no sign (miracle) be given to it, but the sign (miracle) of the
prophet, Jonah."
(Matthew 12:39)

The question arises that, when they threw Jonah overboard, was he dead or was he alive? To make it easy for you to get the right answer, let me help you by suggesting that Jonah had volunteered; when he said:
". . . Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm for you; for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you."
(Jonah 1:12)

When a man volunteers, one does not have to strangle him before throwing him; one does
not have to spear him before throwing him; one does not have to twist his arms or legs
before throwing him. Everyone agrees that that is so.
Now once more the question: Was Jonah dead or alive when he was thrown into the raging sea? We get a unanimous reply - that he was ALIVE! The storm subsides, perhaps it was a coincidence. A fish comes and swallows him. Was he dead or alive? And again everyone says ALIVE! From the fishes belly he prays to God for help. Do dead men pray? "No!" So he was . . . ALIVE! On the third day the fish vomits him onto the seashore - dead or alive? And the reply again is ALIVE! It is a miracle of miracles! The Jews say that he was ALIVE! The Christians say that he was ALIVE! And the Muslims say that he was ALIVE! Little wonder that Jesus chose the "SIGN" (miracle) of Jonah as his only "SIGN" (miracle):
Something on which the followers of three major religions are agreed.

1. When you throw a man into a raging sea, he ought to die.
Because Jonah did not die, therefore, it is a MIRACLE!
2. A fish comes and gobbles the man; he ought to die. He did not
die, therefore, it is now a double MIRACLE!
3. Because of heat and suffocation in the whale's belly for three
days and three nights, he ought to die. He did not die,
therefore, it is now a miracle of MIRACLES!

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be . . ." - (Matthew 12:40). How was Jonah in the whale's belly for three days and three nights - Dead or Alive? The Muslims, the Christians and the Jews again give a unanimous verdict of A-L-I-V-E! How was Jesus in the tomb, for the same period of time - Dead or Alive? Over a thousand million Christians, of every church or Denomination give a unanimous verdict of D-E-A-D! Is that like Jonah or un-like Jonah in your language?

none of the 27 Books of the New Testament record the time of his exit from the tomb. Not a single writer of these 27 "tomes" was an eyewitness to his alleged "resurrection". The only ones who could have told us, authoritatively, a word or two on the subject, have been utterly silenced.
Jesus said that he would be in the tomb for THREE days and THREE nights,
whereas the Christians say that he was in the tomb for only ONE day and TWO
nights. " explain ? "

Conclusion :
1. JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO DIE!
He had worked out a strategy of defence to repel the Jews. Because he wanted
to remain ALIVE!
2. HE BESEECHED GOD FOR HELP.
With strong crying and tears for God Almighty to keep him ALIVE!
3. GOD "HEARD" HIS PRAYERS
Which means that God accepted his prayers to keep him ALIVE!
4. AN ANGEL OF GOD CAME TO STRENGTHEN HIM:
In the hope and belief that God will save him ALIVE!
5. PILATE FINDS JESUS NOT GUILTY!
Good reason to keep Jesus ALIVE!
6. PILATE'S WIFE SHOWN A DREAM IN WHICH SHE WAS TOLD THAT -
"No harm should come to this just man." In other words that he should be
saved ALIVE!
7. SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE CROSS FOR ONLY THREE HOURS.
According to the system in vogue, no man could die by crucifixion in so short a
time which means that even if he was fastened to the cross - he was ALIVE!
8. THE OTHER TWO - HIS "CROSSMATES" ON THEIR RESPECTIVE CROSSES
WERE ALIVE.
So Jesus too, for the same period of time must be ALIVE!
9. ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA UNDER ARTICLE "CROSS" - COLUMN 960:
Says that when the spear was thrust - Jesus was ALIVE!
10. "FORTHWITH" CAME THERE OUT BLOOD AND WATER:
"Forthwith" means straightaway, immediately which was a sure sign that Jesus
was ALIVE!
11. LEGS NOT BROKEN - AS A FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY.
"Legs" can be of any use only if Jesus was ALIVE!
12. THUNDERSTORM, EARTHQUAKE, AND DARKENING OF THE SUN ALL
WITHIN 3 HOURS!
To disperse the sadistic mob to enable his "secret disciples" to help, keep him
ALIVE!
13. JEWS DOUBTED HIS DEATH:
They suspected that he had escaped death on the cross - that he was ALIVE!
14. PILATE "MARVELS" TO HEAR THAT JESUS WAS DEAD.
He knew from experience that no man can die so soon by crucifixion. He
suspected that Jesus was ALIVE!
15. BIG ROOMY CHAMBER:
Close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue.
Providence was out to keep Jesus ALIVE!
16. STONE AND "WINDING SHEETS" HAD TO BE REMOVED:
Only necessary if Jesus was ALIVE!
17. REPORT ON WINDING SHEETS.
German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin"
said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning - that he was ALIVE!
18. EVER IN DISGUISE!
Disguise not necessary if Jesus was "resurrected". Only necessary if he was
ALIVE!
19. FORBADE MARY MAGDALENE TO TOUCH HIM.
"Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt; because he was ALIVE!
20. "NOT YET ASCENDED UNTO MY FATHER"
In the language of the Jews, in the idiom of the Jews, he was saying, "I am not
dead yet", in other words, "I am ALIVE!"
21. MARY MAGDALENE NOT AFRAID ON RECOGNISING JESUS.
Because she had seen signs of life before. She was looking for a Jesus who
was ALIVE!
22. DISCIPLES PETRIFIED ON SEEING JESUS IN THE UPPER-ROOM.
All their knowledge about the "crucifixion" was from hearsay, therefore, they
could not believe that Jesus was ALIVE!
23. ATE FOOD AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS POST "CRUCIFIXION"
APPEARANCES.
Food only necessary if he was ALIVE!
24. NEVER SHOWED HIMSELF TO HIS ENEMIES.
Because he had escaped death by the "skin of his teeth". He was ALIVE!
25. TOOK ONLY SHORT TRIPS.
Because he was not resurrected, not spiritualised, but ALIVE!
26. TESTIMONY OF MEN AROUND THE TOMB:
"Why seek ye the living among the dead?" - (Luke 24:4-5): That he is not
dead, but ALIVE!
27. TESTIMONY OF ANGELS:
". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,
"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"
28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -
". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believed
not." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit of
Jesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master was
ALIVE!
29. DR. PRIMROSE TESTIFIES:
That the "water and the blood", when Jesus was lanced on the side, was on
account of an upset in the nervous vessels because of the scourging by staves.
Which was a sure sign that Jesus was ALIVE!
30. JESUS HAD HIMSELF FORETOLD THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE THE
MIRACLE OF JONAH!
According to the Book of Jonah, Jonah was ALIVE, when we expected him to
be DEAD; similarly when we expect Jesus to be DEAD, he should be ALIVE!

I know its huge post but this is all I have got so far hope it helps O:)

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Post #9

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to mms20102]


"That they said (in boast) "We have killed Christ Jesus the
son of Mary, the apostle of Allah";-- but they killed him not,
nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and
those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain)
knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they
killed him not:--" (Koran, Su 4:157).

First, let's consider that the Qur'an is the inerrant Holy Word of God. At least according to Muslims. That is a crucially vital part of their beliefs. The Qur'an cannot BE wrong. How do we know this? Muslims state with unified conviction that this is so. If the Qur'an is wrong, then a couple of million living Muslims, and billions that have passed away, believe in a lie. Could that many people be that wrong? For your belief to be valid, theirs has to be invalid.

And that would mean that everything written in their sacred book of revealed truth is invalid.

But your sacred book of revealed truth contains very different claims. It contains everything you have listed here, and more. And if it is not true, then a couple of billion Christians are entirely wrong in their most devoutly held beliefs.

Both sides cannot be right.

"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14)

Paul never even met the living Jesus though. Paul was not personally present for ANY of the events described in the Gospels. So Paul is merely presenting his personal opinion here, a declaration of his beliefs. Just as you have do. And we may well feel free to suppose that Paul was a believing Christian. Just as you are. We are under no compulsion to suppose that the beliefs of you and Paul are valid simply by the fact of your holding them. That must be established.
mms20102 wrote: According to St. Paul, there is nothing that Christianity can offer mankind, other than the blood and gore of Jesus. If Jesus did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead, then there can be NO salvation in Christianity! "For all your good deeds", says the Christian dogmatist, "are like filthy rags" - (Isaiah 64:6).
If what Paul believed was his personal view on reality and nothing more, then then there is nothing to be saved FROM. Death? I can only point out to you that despite all claims to the contrary, what we ACTUALLY OBSERVE is that all living things die. No exceptions. Which very nicely explains why everyone who lived 2,000 years ago is still quite dead, INCLUDING JESUS. That is not my opinion. That is not an unfounded claim. That is simply a fact.
mms20102 wrote: I will call up your witnesses and cross examine them to discover the truth or falsity of the matter.
There are no witnesses to call. Because no one recorded ANY of this when it was supposed to have occurred. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, written about a quarter of a century after the time when the Gospels indicate that Jesus was supposed to have been crucified, represents the very first historical mention of the resurrection EVER. And as I already pointed out, Paul was not himself a witness to ANY of it. The supposed resurrection of Jesus caused not the slightest ripple of comment or apparent notice from anyone at all, at the time it was supposed to have occurred. The Jewish population of Jerusalem, THE PEOPLE IN THE BEST POSITION TO HAVE KNOWN WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED, largely considered the story to have been nothing more than a hoax perpetuated by the followers of Jesus. The obvious conclusion I might add. And Jews overwhelmingly reject it to this day.

What the Gospels and Acts tell us is that the followers of Jesus were responsible for spreading the rumor of the risen Jesus, beginning about six weeks after the execution. That is a very satisfactory and realistic explanation for the origin of the story. The rumor itself, on the other hand, that the corpse of Jesus came back to life and then subsequently flew away, off up into the clouds, has zero credibility.

Which makes all of the rest of the material you have presented, not evidence at all. But simply the claims of Christians. The proclamations of their beliefs. Just as the Qur'an is the proclamation of Muslim beliefs. But you must understand, and this is important, claims do NOT represent evidence. They are proclamations of belief. And that's very different.

Your entire post is not "evidence" for the truth of your beliefs. It is a statement of your beliefs.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 8 by mms20102]

I have to admit, I thought you were going to tell us "because the Qur'an says so". But this is a pleasant surprise.

You reasoned mostly from the Bible, and present a compelling, if not entirely convincing case. Perhaps plausible, is the word I would use to describe it.

I undserstand the usual Muslim argument is "because God will not allow his prophets to be killed, and be considered failures."

But Jesus himself contradicts that line of thinking, in the 8th Beattitude he says the prophets before him were also persecuted.

But I give you an "A" for effort. A plausible case, if not convincing in every single detail.

I must confess that I am not an historian, nor an expert on the crucifixion or the resurrection.

So I leave it to others to agree, critique or dispute.

In a way, it doesn't matter too much to me, because I do not see the cross as the source of atonement.

I believe that God forgives the contrite without the need for blood, human or animal.

Mercy is His nature, and He does not need to be bought with blood.

He is, as you Muslims say, "The Compassionate, the Merciful".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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