Biggest Problem With Accepting Christianity

[Danmark]

I suggest that one of the major reasons people do not accept Christianity is that Christians do not accept the teachings of Christ.

While many are eager to call homosexuality a sin because they believe Jesus preached that (even tho' it is unclear that he did);
And even tho' many are adamant that husbands should rule over their wives because Paul said so;

Jesus preached very clearly that if you want to be perfect you should sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow Him. Here is one of the clearest and most unequivocal teachings of Jesus, yet virtually NO Christian even attempts to follow this command.

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?�
. . . . “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.�
Matthew 19:16-21

Most if not all give the same response Jesus heard 2000 years ago:

When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

How can people call themselves 'Christian' when they fail to follow this central teaching of Jesus?

[Divine Insight]

How can people call themselves 'Christian' when they fail to follow this central teaching of Jesus?

I don't reject the religion based on how people who call themselves "Christians" might behave.

As you point out, that really has nothing to do with the religion itself since they aren't even following what Christ taught. So the overwhelming majority of Christians are totally removed from the religion and don't even remotely follow what it teaches.

In fact, I think you would be extremely hard-pressed to find anyone who could follow the teachings of Jesus. For one thing, as you point out, a person would need to become a completely homeless bum in order to follow the teachings of Jesus. That's not only impractical in today's society but it's also basically illegal. You'll get kicked off of private or even public property if you try to live somewhere that you aren't either renting or own. Most places even have laws against living in your car.

In today's world having gainful employment and at least paying rent to live somewhere is pretty much mandatory. And it also requires having some education and planning to do this successfully. Yet Jesus taught that we are not to take thought of the morrow but that the morrow will take care of itself. Well duh? If you don't make some plans for a career you're going to end up being homeless whether you like it or not. And then you'll be treated as a "bum" by our society, plus you won't be in any position to help anyone else. You certainly won't be able to "give to the poor" since you will be the poor.

The things that Jesus taught simply aren't practical in any real sense. You absolutely have to have possession in this world if you hope to do anything constructive at all or be useful to anyone.

In fact, look at someone like Bill Gates. He certainly very wealthy, yet there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he has helped far more needy people than I have. I simply don't have the "wealth" to be able to help that many people.

So contrary to what Jesus taught being wealthy is a GOOD THING! It enables you to help the poor. Whereas if you are foolish enough to give away all your wealth and become the poor, then you will have succeeded in doing nothing more than becoming a BURDEN to society.

Is that what Jesus expects us to do? Should we all become a burden to society by refusing to obtain any wealth?

What does he expect us to do? Become cave men and just sit around twiddling our thumbs all day?

If we plan or work to build an actual house we will be disobeying Jesus' teachings that we are to take NO thought of the morrow. How could we build something that takes planning like building a house if we aren't supposed to take any thought of the morrow? Why are we building the house? We can't use it today, it's not built yet! We can only be planning for tomorrow.

And then when we finally have the house built, guess what? We will own a POSSESSION! And if we are the only one around who has a house then we will be the wealthiest person around, so we'll have to GIVE THE HOUSE AWAY to someone who didn't bother building a house.

But then there's a real problem here. That previously poor person will now own the house, so they will have become wealthy! So now they will have to give it away!

In short, according to Jesus no one should own a house! You'd just have to give it away if you owned it anyway.

The teachings of Jesus make absolutely no rational or practical sense at all. This is why NO CHRISTIANS follow the teachings of Jesus. Or if there are any who actually do they are just bums living off of hand-outs from the people who are working for a living.

But anyone today who owns a house, car, computers, what-have-you, is violating Jesus' teachings that they are to give away their possessions. So they can hardly claim to be following the teachings of Jesus.

And these TV Christian Evangelists are the biggest hypocrites of all. They're making MILLIONS! They are FILTHY RICH!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

I don't accept your interpretation of the teachings of Christ, so I propose that people can and do call themselves 'Christian' because they successfully follow the central teaching of Jesus?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

I don't accept your interpretation of the teachings of Christ, so I propose that people can and do call themselves 'Christian' because they successfully follow the central teaching of Jesus?

Care to enlighten us as to your interpretation of Christ's teachings, specifically rebutting what DI said up above? Simply saying you don't accept doesn't further the conversation.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by rikuoamero]


QUESTION Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?


It is not unusual for certain read of this conclusion based on Jesus words to a rich young ruler who ask him (Jesus) What he needed to do to gain eternal life. However was Jesus implying that it was wrong to have any material possessions?

This can hardly be a reasonable conclusion

#1 Although Jesus lived modestly the Scriptures indicate Jesus himself did own material possessions, he had for example a rather fine coat that was deemed of such good quality at his death that soldiers cast lots to get it.

#2 Some of Jesus closest friends and even Apostles owned houses (the Scriptures refer to the Apostle Peters house long after he (Peter) had become a disciple and just before his death Jesus is reported to have stayed at the house of Mary and Martha of Bethany. Indeed, Mary was commended personally by Jesus for her use of a very expensive oil on his behalf, the cost of which is estimated to be the equivalent of a years wage, indicating that Mary was a woman of some wealth. At no time do we read of Jesus reminding Mary or others that they needed to be poor and renounce all material possessions in order to be Christians.

#3 Jesus taught his followers to seek the kingdom "first" and to give spiritual pursuits the priority, but he did not say seek the kingdom with the exclusion of all other secular activities. Neither Jesus nor any of His obedient followers were known for asceticism, or for walking about naked and denying themselves the basic pleasures that material possessions accord, indeed he specifically said that God knows we need material things (see Matthew chapter 6). Never did Jesus say that material possessions were in themselves sinful, on the contrary many of his illustrations centered on things associated with the legitimate and God ordained responsibility of family heads to provide food, clothing and shelter for those under their charge, never indicating that Christians should live on the charity of others rather than work and have enough to provide for their needs.

#4 Towards the end of his ministry Jesus specifically told his disciples to procure possession and take money with them when they embarked on their preaching campaigns.

CONCLUSION There is sufficient biblical evidence that the renouncing of all material possessions and living on the charity of others is not a fundamental requirement of Christianity, but rather that Jesus taught the value of putting material pursuits in a secondary position in life.


# QUESTION: What then did Jesus mean by his words to the rich young ruler?

A close examination of the account indicates that Jesus words were specific to that particular young man, and not a general requirement for all Christians.

The man approached Jesus and asked what more he had to do to obtain eternal life, Jesus is reported to have judged the man sincere but, the account says he (Jesus) saw something in him (the young man) that evidently was a potential problem for him. What that man's problem was is indicated by what Jesus next said, which was to sell all he had and follow him (Jesus) on the road. Evidently Jesus had detected in him an over attachment to his somewhat significant wealth. His request threw this attachment into the light and proved too much for the man. me, butility to that man.

After hearing that, Jesus said to him: “There is yet one thing lacking about you: Sell all the things you have and distribute to poor people, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come be my follower.� When he heard this, he became deeply grieved, for he was very rich.� - Luke 18:22,23 ( New World Translation)

Note however that this request to sell off what one possesses was not systematic for Jesus, indeed this is the only time we read of such a request although he (Jesus) invited many to follow him. The account reads that Jesus specifically pointed out the problem was in him (the man) not in Peter (who evidently still owned a house, not in John (who clearly had a house and possessions since at his death Jesus gave care of his mother over to John who in turn the bible says took her into his home. Not to any of the other disciple that were obviously not waliking about in abject poverty begging for food because their faith requirked the to own nothing.

Indeed, common sense dictates Jesus was not instructing the young man to walk about naked having renounced "everything " he owned, but to sell all that was in excess of his needs and live a life centered on spiritual rather than physical pursuits. Jesus taught consistently that one cannot love possessions more than God, so this man needed to adjust his view of worldly possessionso if he wanted God'save favour.

CONCLUSION: Not every request Jesus made was for all Christians, although everything he did and said conveyed principles that are instructive it would be a mistake to conclude that all his word can or should be extrapolated to the whole. He asked the woman at the well for a drink, he asked his diciples to go get a donkey, he told Peter to walk on water, he told John to look after his mother .... all of these instructions requests and Commandements were particular to the individuals concerned and the specific circumstances. The instruction to the rich young ruler falls into this category of requests and is not a prerequisite for all Christians.


RELATED POSTS

Should Jesus words about abandoning "all things" be taken literally?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p908689

Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p835720

Did Jesus expect his disciples to give up absolutely everything they owned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p908161

Would the "Acts model" allow for Christian ownership of houses?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p980613

Is there proof JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the religion that put spiritual things ahead of working for money?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 85#p909585

Did Jesus command all his disciples renounce employment and all private ownership.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p980601

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , MONEY & WEALTH and ... JW's FINANCES

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

I don't accept your interpretation of the teachings of Christ, so I propose that people can and do call themselves 'Christian' because they successfully follow the central teaching of Jesus?

This is exactly what I am talking about. It's not that they try to follow the teachings of Jesus and fail, it's that they don't even try. When they run into a clear statement of proposed action, they refuse to accept it.

Note that there is no analysis offered as to WHY this 'interpretation' of mine is not accepted; it is simply not accepted despite the clarity of the words in the passage.

One likely reason for this admonition is that Jesus, like Paul and other NT writers, believed the apocalypse was imminent, there was no time to wait, the cataclysmic events that would presage the 'Second Coming' would unfold "while some standing here" were still alive (another passage that is not taken seriously by most Christians.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 4 by rikuoamero]


QUESTION Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?


It is not unusual for certain read of this conclusion based on Jesus words to a rich young ruler who ask him (Jesus) What he needed to do to gain eternal life. However was Jesus implying that it was wrong to have any material possessions?

This can hardly be a reasonable conclusion

That is the problem, men don't follow what their scripture says, but substitute their own reason and interpretation despite being told not to do that in Proverbs and 2Peter 1:20-21:
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

If you were to remove everything that was not reasonable from the Bible there would be little left.

[Danmark]

Other words of Jesus are consistent with 'MY' 'interpretation of his admonition to the young man:

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[a] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

[Clownboat]

I suggest that one of the major reasons people do not accept Christianity is that Christians do not accept the teachings of Christ.

While many are eager to call homosexuality a sin because they believe Jesus preached that (even tho' it is unclear that he did);
And even tho' many are adamant that husbands should rule over their wives because Paul said so;

Jesus preached very clearly that if you want to be perfect you should sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow Him. Here is one of the clearest and most unequivocal teachings of Jesus, yet virtually NO Christian even attempts to follow this command.

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?�
. . . . “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.�
Matthew 19:16-21

Most if not all give the same response Jesus heard 2000 years ago:

When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

How can people call themselves 'Christian' when they fail to follow this central teaching of Jesus?

IMO, the Christianity we have today is Paul's religion, Jesus was just the victim of this creation.
Jesus, whom I assume was a real person had nothing to do with what we have today.

I have example after example of why this is.
Here is one such example which deals with our supposed eternity:
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.

Now let's contrast this with what a Jesus is said to have claimed:
Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you.

What gives? Why does Jesus pretend like his blood is not needed? What does Paul know that Jesus does not?

[JehovahsWitness]

If you were to remove everything that was not reasonable from the Bible there would be little left.

If you were to remove everything that was not reasonable from the Bible would remain entirely as it is. The bible is the most reasonable and logical of books and remains a staple reference for many millions of people for daily living as well because it reflects a reasonable balanced and logical worldview.

JW