God doesn't need my help.

[Divine Insight]

God is omnipotent, he is described in the bible as Almighty (having all power), thus he doesnt need anything or anyone to to help or assist him achieve his goals.

God doesn't need my help,....

Oh, by the way, let me explain what God was trying to say in the Bible because it's pretty obvious the he did a really bad job of explaining things himself.

Question for debate:

Doe this type of theistic argument make any sense to anyone?

[Tcg]

So even a God who merely wants evangelists to fix his problems would still be a God who has problems that need to be tended to.

Emphasis MINE


And what are these "problems" you are referring to God as having?

The problem is that the Biblical God is not convincing people via his very own Bible.

And how (even if that were true) would that be a problem for him?

JW

It wouldn't be if he intends to be a God of confusion. If he intends to live up to this claim:

• 1 Corinthians 14:33a - For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

It is a huge problem for him.


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

So even a God who merely wants evangelists to fix his problems would still be a God who has problems that need to be tended to.

Emphasis MINE


And what are these "problems" you are referring to God as having?

The problem is that the Biblical God is not convincing people via his very own Bible.

And how (even if that were true) would that be a problem for him?



JW

I guess if you allow that this God can be a totally selfish jerk who never intended to be trustworthy then being a terrible communicator would not be a problem for him. But that would only be an apology that would be valid for a God like Zeus who is permitted to be a totally selfish and untrustworthy jerk. But let's not get bogged down thinking about an imaginary God's ego. Instead let's focus on what the Biblical God is supposed to be like.

The Biblical God is supposed to be righteous, just, and trustworthy. There would be no righteous, just or trustworthy reason for a decent God to create self-contradictory and uncompelling collections of stories about himself, and then expect mere mortal evangelists to sort it all out for everyone. So yes, a terribly written collection of Holy Scriptures is indeed a problem for a God who is supposed to be righteous, just, and trustworthy.

In short, any God who wants to be seen as being righteous, just and trustworthy, needs to display those qualities. To fail to do so would be a problem for him in terms of being able to communicate those qualities to his intended audience.

his problem would also result in the wrongful death of countless innocent humans. Obviously his problem becomes our problem too if he is out to damn everyone who wasn't convinced by his incompetience. But that's a whole other topic.

In fact, how could we trust a God who allows his problems to become our problems? You can't have an incompetent God and ask why this would be a problem for him. Whether or not he personally minds being a incompetent God is irrelevant.

In Christian theology a God who is supposed to be competent cannot afford to simultaneously be incompetent.

In fact, we can even ignore the question of whether or not this would be a problem for him and simply recognize that it would indeed be a huge problem for Christian theology in general.

You can hardly make apologies for an incompetent God by claiming that this wouldn't be a problem for him, like as if his ego is all that matters and we should just ignore the fact that this destroys Christian theology entirely.

In fact, this goes back to the point that BlueGreenEarth made in post 2.

You are apparently so focused on defending this God character that you lose sight of the fact that it's actually a theology that you need to defend, not some imagined egotistical God.

That's confirmation bias in full bloom.

Your basically assuming that this God exists, and can do whatever he so desires and his character cannot be questioned.

But that misses the entire point of the theology. The God is supposed to be trustworthy, sane, and stable. We aren't talking about Zeus where Zeus can just do whatever he wants and doesn't need to be righteous, just or trustworthy.

Can I trust your God JW?

If so, then you can hardly claim that an incompetent or untrustworthy God wouldn't be a problem for your theology.

[JehovahsWitness]

The problem is that the Biblical God is not convincing people via his very own Bible.

...let's focus on what the Biblical God is supposed to be like.

Good idea...so how is it a problem for the God of the bible if people remain unconvinced of his existence? He pays higher taxes? He has to move into a smaller residence? He stops being infinte? He is forced to put on a thicker sweater? What ?! Indeed how is it his problem if the entire univers is snuffed out like a burnt out match?

ISAIAH 40:15

Look! The nations are like a drop from a bucket,
And as the film of dust on the scales they are regarded

I'm not suggesting he wouldnt care, but he would be caring about someone elses problem not his own. We dont usually call something a problem for someone if it has absolutely zero effect on them personally. Having a empathy is feeling pain for someone else's problem and is not problematic, so again I fail to see where the supposed "problem" God has could possibly be?

If a drowning man is offered a hand by a man in the boat, it might be wise for him to be able to identify which if the two of them has the problem.


JW

[Divine Insight]

The problem is that the Biblical God is not convincing people via his very own Bible.

...let's focus on what the Biblical God is supposed to be like.

Good idea...so how is it a problem for the God of the bible if people remain unconvinced of his existence? He pays higher taxes? He has to move into a smaller residence? He stops being infinte? He is forced to put on a thicker sweater? What ?! Indeed how is it his problem if the entire univers is snuffed out like a burnt out match?

I'm not suggesting he wouldnt care, but he would be caring about someone elses problem not his own. We dont usually call something a problem for someone if it has absolutely zero effect on them personally. Having a empathy is feeling pain for someone else's problem and is not problematic, so again I fail to see where the supposed "problem" God has could possibly be?


JW

You seem to be loosing sight of the fact that this is actually about the consistency of a theology. Not about some imaginary egotistical God who supposedly doesn't give a hoot whether humans believe in him or not.

If he demands that we believe in him and hasn't provided us with a compelling reason to believe he exists then this is actually his problem.

Are you forgetting that your theology has him proclaiming to be a jealous God who demands to be worshiped?

Therefore if he has failed to convince humans that he's real this would be a problem for his goal of wanting humans to worship him.

The God character in your theology is pathetic. And your best apology is to claim that this isn't God's problem because this God doesn't really give a hoot about the fate of humans?

I think you just shot your own theology in the head.

[Tcg]

Good idea...so how is it a problem for the God of the bible if people remain unconvinced of his existence?

Because once again it reveals a flaw in his inspired scripture:

• Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

According to this passage, all humans are indeed convinced of his existence. If it is true that some are unconvinced, and that is true, then this passage reveals the fact that the Bible is fallible.


Tcg

[Menotu]

God is omnipotent, he is described in the bible as Almighty (having all power), thus he doesnt need anything or anyone to to help or assist him achieve his goals.

God doesn't need my help,....

Oh, by the way, let me explain what God was trying to say in the Bible because it's pretty obvious the he did a really bad job of explaining things himself.

Question for debate:

Doe this type of theistic argument make any sense to anyone?

I've found, if you look at it logically and not in a 'needy' way, very little of Christianity makes sense.
But, if you look at it from the aspect of needing it to be right, it makes perfect sense.
After spending decades in Christianity, it's not a logical concept when you look at it without emotion.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 16 by Menotu]

Agreed. It definitely requires confirmation bias to make any sense at all.

I think there were two major reasons why I was able to quickly see through it.

First, the thought of simply ceasing to exist when I die has never truly bothered me. Even to this day I find it difficult why the thought of ceasing to exist appears to be something that so many people cannot handle.

The second reason was that I didn't see the Biblical account of God as being the only possible explanation of a God anyway. In other words, for me, Christianity, and the entire Abraham and Biblical picture of God could be totally wrong, and that doesn't exclude the possibility of there still being a mystical magical essence to reality anyway. In fact, I personally think that many of the Eastern Mystical pictures of reality make far more sense. And some of those even suggest that life is but a dream and we are the dreamer. In other words, in those theologies we are the "God".

So I never had a need to support Hebrew mythology at all cost.

The only final piece would be the threat of being cast into an eternal hell if I refused to believe. But that threat is obviously a farce. I feel deeply sorry for anyone who fell for that one.

Any God who would cast me into eternal damnation wouldn't be worth spitting on.

That's the problem. In order for that threat to be true the God would need to be the most evil monster imaginable. But that flies directly in the face of a supposedly intelligent, trustworthy, righteous, and just God anyway. So that threat is the theology shooting itself in its own foot again.

They are basically asking me to believe in a God who isn't even as decent as myself. That's a pretty pathetic theology.

[1213]

...
Doe this type of theistic argument make any sense to anyone?

Yes.

[Divine Insight]

...
Doe this type of theistic argument make any sense to anyone?

Yes.

I believe BlueGreenEarth already answered this. It makes sense to those who allow confirmation bias to cloud their thinking.

Those who need for this theology to be true will accept the most absurd and obviously illogical arguments in support of it. So this is why it makes sense to some people. And this is why the religion continues to be viable right up to the 21st century. Confirmation bias allows the religion to thrive even in the face of illogical and nonsensical apologies.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 17 by Divine Insight]

I find it difficult why the thought of ceasing to exist appears to be something that so many people cannot handle.

I wonder if it has more to do with not knowing. People seem to want to know things. Unless you place your beliefs in to something other than knowledge. Then I guess you don't care as much?

I didn't see the Biblical account of God as being the only possible explanation of a God anyway.

Totally. But I guess it's what fits the bill for certain individuals (most of whom probably don't know much else).

The only final piece would be the threat of being cast into an eternal hell if I refused to believe. But that threat is obviously a farce. I feel deeply sorry for anyone who fell for that one.

It blows me away how many people readily accept this as factual!
"Well, the bible said it so it much be true. Let's worship this thing and kiss up to it so we don't go to hell!"

Any God who would cast me into eternal damnation wouldn't be worth spitting on.

I agree. Why people just accept it without question is almost as disturbing as the myth itself.

They are basically asking me to believe in a God who isn't even as decent as myself. That's a pretty pathetic theology.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.