CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I think Checkpoint was replying to B Bob. The quote was not from me.

I'm happy you like post #193. That makes two of us!!

Oh whew!!! I couldn't see my spiritual brother making statements like that! They were SO off, I had to make sure my eyes were seeing correctly, and I'm relieved to know they were posted by someone who is so totally wacked out that I have put him on "ignore," and not you!


(And I did go back and look at Checkpoint's post again and I see that he was responding to B Bob. My apologies!)

[onewithhim]

This thread should help a new one to these threads who is unfamiliar with the Bible.

[tigger2]

I commented on part A of my Challenges in post 16 above. B is in post 17; C in 18; D in 19; E in 20; F in 27; and G in 193 (p. 20); and H in post#194. Please review these posts if you wish to comment on the Challenges of the OP.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by tigger2]

I wonder how people can read the Athanasian Creed and swallow it. It says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal. If that were true, the Son would not have to be SENT by anyone, or be ANOINTED by anyone, or be COMMANDED by anyone.....all things that Jesus said that the Father did to him.

Isaiah 61:1,2----fulfilled by Jesus when he applied it to himself as the one sent and anointed, at Luke 4:16-21.

John 5:19

John 12:49,50


The Father and Son are obviously NOT equal, for the Son obeys the Father. If he was equal, he wouldn't have to obey anybody.

"God" and Jesus Christ are portrayed in the Scriptures as two independent Persons, with Jesus Christ in submission to "God." He "came forth from God and was going to God" (John 13:3). If Jesus is God, then he was going back to himself?

Jesus said to the Father: "This means everlasting life, taking in knowledge of you,
the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3) So we have "God" and "Jesus Christ"---not the same.


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[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by tigger2]

I wonder how people can read the Athanasian Creed and swallow it. It says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal. If that were true, the Son would not have to be SENT by anyone, or be ANOINTED by anyone, or be COMMANDED by anyone.....all things that Jesus said that the Father did to him.

Isaiah 61:1,2----fulfilled by Jesus when he applied it to himself as the one sent and anointed, at Luke 4:16-21.

John 5:19

John 12:49,50


The Father and Son are obviously NOT equal, for the Son obeys the Father. If he was equal, he wouldn't have to obey anybody.

"God" and Jesus Christ are portrayed in the Scriptures as two independent Persons, with Jesus Christ in submission to "God." He "came forth from God and was going to God" (John 13:3). If Jesus is God, then he was going back to himself?

Jesus said to the Father: "This means everlasting life, taking in knowledge of you,
the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3) So we have "God" and "Jesus Christ"---not the same.

RESPONSE: What you posted is very true. But add to this it wasn't an issue until the 4th century when a Trinity "dogma" was thought up to try to explain how there were 2 or 3 Gods. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Arius was essentially correct, but the Church needed a second God to support its claims.

[tigger2]

How significant is it that no trinity apologist has answered any of the eight challenges in the 3.5 years they have been posted here?

[onewithhim]

How significant is it that no trinity apologist has answered any of the eight challenges in the 3.5 years they have been posted here?

Yes. I wonder what the reason for that might be....?


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[Checkpoint]

How significant is it that no trinity apologist has answered any of the eight challenges in the 3.5 years they have been posted here?

Yes. I wonder what the reason for that might be....?

But how accurate is this claim that no one has answered, is what I wonder.

Does "answered" mean "successfully answered"?

[onewithhim]

How significant is it that no trinity apologist has answered any of the eight challenges in the 3.5 years they have been posted here?

Yes. I wonder what the reason for that might be....?

But how accurate is this claim that no one has answered, is what I wonder.

Does "answered" mean "successfully answered"?

No one has even tried to address it, whether or not they agree with the post. That is somewhat strange. Do YOU have something to say in reference to, for example, the trinitarian view?


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[MarysSon]

How significant is it that no trinity apologist has answered any of the eight challenges in the 3.5 years they have been posted here?

I will answer ALL of your 8 points - which are NOT difficult to answer from Scripture.

FIRST, I need YOU to give me Biblical proof that everything must be explicitly mentioned in Scripture.
This is a standard that even Sola Scripturists do not dare hold to.

The teachings of Scripture come to us in TWO ways:
- Explicit teaching
- Implicit teaching

So, you cannot hold everybody to a standard that is NOT recognized by Scripture itself. You either need to prove your position - or concede that some of these 8 points can be proven by the IMPLICIT teachings of Scripture.

When you have addressed this challenge - I will be MORE than happy to answer all of your 8 points.
Remember - for YOUR demands to be addressed - YOU have to provide proof for your impossible standard that would include the use of the term "Bible" - which is NOT in the Bible.

You will ALSO have to prove - from Scripture - why the New Testament has 27 Books . . .