God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Your starting point is Genesis 1:26-27... our starting point is Genesis 2:7...

My starting point, Checkpoint, is Genesis 1:1. And I disregard no part of Scripture. Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:7 describe the same event. The only difference is that 2:7 gives us a close-up, detailed view of the creation of man rather than a general description of of the creation of man in the middle of the rest of God's creative act.

I would say that we could probably agree with the gist of what you say about image and His glory being reflected, but not to the way you applied them to our existence and our eternality.

Sure, and that's too bad. But fair enough.

So, we believe our reflection of Him is not "our eternality", but instead is "our potential eternality", which is conditional only rather than being a given, or intrinsic.

Sure, that's been clear from the get-go. This is a preconceived idea, though, a predisposition that runs contrary to Scripture. God created everything good, even very good. And it will all -- all -- be very good again.

The Lord bless and keep you, Pinseeker.

And you also, Checkpoint. And to all others here. The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gradious to you; the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

[PinSeeker]

All judgments result in finite decisions.

Right, but they have perpetual implications. And in the case of the Judgment -- which, you're right, is a one-time event; I have never stated anything to the contrary -- has eternal implications. It doesn't take place again and again over eternity, but it stands for eternity.

You are confusing judgment with the decision and sentencing.

Nope. See above.

Granting everyone's free will choice of accepting or rejecting everlasting life is God's expression of love and mercy. He will honor everyone's individual choice because He is just and true...

Of course.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[earl]

myth-one.com,

And you ask why do I claim the lake of fire is a torture devise?
I actually said method but ,
I know that the synomyn for torment is torture.Both words mean the same.Don't you think?.
IS it just judgement for God to to torture man and angel with fire and brimstone?
This torture action would also indicate a payback from God ,don't you think?
Should modern civilization attempt to use fire and brimstone as just judgement for the wicked?

[Checkpoint]

God is not merciless, but is merciful.

I agree. That's why He annihilates no one. Not any part of His creation. That's just it... your God's -- and Tam's and myth-one's, and that of several others here -- mercy is far, far too small.

God knew what He was doing when He created mankind. He knew we would fail the test, and had already factored in a Savior and ransom.

This I agree with, of course.

That is why He did not make us to have endless existence, but instead made available to us conditional immortality. Those who fail to comply are not left with endless existence, but have their existence ended.

Nope. Not according to Scripture. Those who "fail to comply" -- fail to repent and believe and therefore remain in rebellion are placed under eternal judgment... by Jesus at the Judgment. And there they remain, for eternity.

Eternal judgment, yes.

That is, the judicial decision against them is then carried out, The Second Death. As a result, they will not remain in rebellion but instead lose their soul and be no more for eternity.

This is an expression of His love and mercy, and a reflection of His glory.

Well, that's exactly what I say about my position (and Scripture in general). Herein lies the problem, actually. Your position (and that of Tam, myth-one, and several others here) makes God's love and mercy (among other things and his majesty and glory out to be far, far too small. I fully believe this is unintentional and inadvertent, but that is indeed the case.[/quote]

Whose position is far too small?

The position that depicts God as the perfect planner, and as showing His great love and mercy to the unbelievers by not extending but ending their consequent misery for good. And thereby bringing to Himself the greater glory.

Or the position that depicts God as the unthinking planner in regard to anyone who failed to accept His free gift of salvation. He did this by creating humankind with endless existence instead of mortality with the opportunity of gaining eternal life. Having to, or choosing to, preserve the endless existence of the unsaved in misery and anguish, suggests that God's great love is absent and that He will be merciless forever. This sad state of affairs certainly does not redound to His glory.

I am sorry that we disagree, but it need not break our fellowship. Grace and peace to you and all.[/quote]

Amen and amen.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 171 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

Your starting point is Genesis 1:26-27... our starting point is Genesis 2:7...

My starting point, Checkpoint, is Genesis 1:1. And I disregard no part of Scripture. Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:7 describe the same event. The only difference is that 2:7 gives us a close-up, detailed view of the creation of man rather than a general description of of the creation of man in the middle of the rest of God's creative act.

That has proved to be a major difference, that tends to confirm what I said earlier about how significant the starting point is.

You have chosen "a general description", from which you assume and/or claim something never directly stated in Scripture.

We start from "a close-up, detailed view" containing direct statements.



Checkpoint wrote:

So, we believe our reflection of Him is not "our eternality", but instead is "our potential eternality", which is conditional only rather than being a given, or intrinsic.

Sure, that's been clear from the get-go. This is a preconceived idea, though, a predisposition that runs contrary to Scripture. God created everything good, even very good. And it will all -- all -- be very good again.

No, what we say is not from any preconceived idea, but is based on a God-conceived Scriptural view that is close-up and detailed.

Thus we have a predisposition that does not run contrary to Scripture.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

No, what we say is not from any preconceived idea, but is based on a God-conceived Scriptural view that is close-up and detailed. Thus we have a predisposition that does not run contrary to Scripture.

... in your opinion. Just saying the words and holding that conviction does not make it true.

My opinion is the the opposite; annihilationism is at best a misunderstanding of Scripture and at worst a heresy totally contrary to Scripture. Rather, eternal, conscious confinement of unrepentant sinners is what the Bible -- and Jesus Himself -- teaches; He's very clear in both Matthew 25:41-46:

• “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€�

and Luke 16:22-26:

• "The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ "

Now you will say the same thing I just said to you right back to me: Just saying the words and holding to that conviction does not make it true. Well, fair enough. There is no need to keep repeating ourselves.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

myth-one.com,

And you ask why do I claim the lake of fire is a torture devise?
I actually said method but ,
I know that the synomyn for torment is torture.Both words mean the same.Don't you think?.
IS it just judgement for God to to torture man and angel with fire and brimstone?
This torture action would also indicate a payback from God ,don't you think?
Should modern civilization attempt to use fire and brimstone as just judgement for the wicked?

You are correct that torture & torment are synonyms.

===========================================

The important result coming out of judgment is whether or not one's name is written in the Book of Life.

Those whose names are written in the Book of Life (believers) will inherit everlasting spiritual life.

Those whose names are not in the Book of Life (nonbelievers) will perish.

The method used to implement that death will be the lake of fire.

====================================

And yes, there will be some momentary torment and gnashing of teeth -- mostly prior to the "casting" I would suspect.

But there is no long extended period of torment for any human cast into the lake of fire. Consciousness of a human body cast into such a lake should not exist for even a second.

Angels will experience no physical problem with the Lake of fire -- as they do not have physical bodies.

================================================

Here is s brief summary of end time events, according to the scriptures:

1. At the Second Coming of Christ, all dead believers will be resurrected and born again as everlasting spiritual beings.
2. All living believers will be born again as spiritual bodied beings at that same time.
3. These born again individuals will then spend the 1000 year millennium with Jesus.
4. After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans.
5. These nonbelievers will then face the judgment.
6. Following the judgment, all whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and permanent physical death.
7. Jesus and the born again believers will then rule the earth for ever and ever.

==========================================

I don't see this as any payback from God.

We get to choose our future.

A loving God simply honors our choices.

========================================

Should modern civilization attempt to use fire and brimstone as just judgement for the wicked?

Modern civilization would just screw it up.

We cannot even design a merciful method of capital punishment.

Those condemned to death should only be informed that they were sentenced to death.

Sometime, after all appeals were over, the condemned person should eat supper as he has been doing every night, go to bed and die in his or her sleep.

===============================================

But it does not happen that way, because we demand vengeance. We need to see that person under torment and stress.

We display vengeance and hatred, not mercy.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 176 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

No, what we say is not from any preconceived idea, but is based on a God-conceived Scriptural view that is close-up and detailed. Thus we have a predisposition that does not run contrary to Scripture.

Pinseeker replied:

... in your opinion. Just saying the words and holding that conviction does not make it true.

My opinion is the the opposite; annihilationism is at best a misunderstanding of Scripture and at worst a heresy totally contrary to Scripture. Rather, eternal, conscious confinement of unrepentant sinners is what the Bible -- and Jesus Himself -- teaches

Two opinions, yes.

Neither Jesus nor the Bible teaches "eternal, conscious confinement" for unrepentant sinners, is also my opinion.

It's not even in those two passages.

Now you will say the same thing I just said to you right back to me: Just saying the words and holding to that conviction does not make it true. Well, fair enough. There is no need to keep repeating ourselves.

Grace and peace to you.

But we do anyway!

Bless you too.

[PinSeeker]

Neither Jesus nor the Bible teaches "eternal, conscious confinement" for unrepentant sinners, is also my opinion. It's not even in those two passages.

Okay, yeah so that's your opinion; that's well established. Mine is what it is, and that's well-established. Let's quit calling each other "wrong," at least for now, even though it's crystal clear -- many times over -- that we both think that of each other. Let's get past that.

I would like to hear you expound on what you say here. What do you believe he's teaching in one or both those places?

[PinSeeker]

I know that the synonym for torment is torture. Both words mean the same.Don't you think? IS it just judgement for God to to torture man and angel with fire and brimstone? This torture action would also indicate a payback from God ,don't you think?

Earl, I'm sure this will get rebuttals from others, and that's fine, they can do what they want, of course. But I'm going to answer this, and I want to hear from you what you think.

The word 'torture' is never used in the Bible in relation to the Judgment or everlasting punishment or even "hell" (regardless what you think about hell as an actual place or not). The word 'torment' is used, though. But even if one insists on using 'torture' along with 'torment,' and regards the two terms as synonyms, can not be "torture" and "torment" be internal? Mental? Of the self? In other words, can not what is experienced and/or endured be a torturous frustration and mental anguish, a self-consuming -- figuratively speaking -- disappointment? I would submit to you that this is exactly what the Bible means by 'torment.' This is "their..." (the wicked's) "...worm that does not die." And make no mistake, this is a death -- the Second Death, as in last or final (just as Adam is the first man and Jesus is the Second Man, the last Adam); there is no longer any possibility of being delivered from that Judgment and thus redeemed.

You seem to have the incontrovertible idea that this torment spoken of in the Bible -- and okay, you can even say 'torture' if you want, although that is extra-biblical -- is physical in nature, and that is surely not the case. And even beyond that, God is not the administrator of this torment. What happens to someone -- being judged guilty, in this case -- is only what makes it possible for this person to be totally frustrated, anguished, and disappointed. And in this way, they are in an eternal fire ("this flame," as portrayed in Jesus's parable in Luke 16) -- which is figurative, not literal. Such was the case with Adam and Eve when they were not wiped from existence but cast out of the Garden of Eden (paradise) and away from the Tree of Life. And such will be the case for unrepentant sinners, who, at the Judgment, will be permanently cast out of the New Heaven and New Earth, away from the true Tree of Life, Christ Jesus. Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23). He will not say, "Off with your head!", and -- facetiously speaking -- He will not snap His fingers like Thanos and reduce half of His creation to literal ashes.

Should modern civilization attempt to use fire and brimstone as just judgement for the wicked?

Good heavens. No, of course not.

Grace and peace to you, Earl.