God's truth about hell

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Checkpoint
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God's truth about hell

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #271

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Yeah right!
Well, it is right, praise the Lord. To Him -- Father, Son, and Spirit -- alone be the glory.
Checkpoint wrote: God has, apparently, opted to destroy death, not by ending it, but by continuing on those judged worthy of it, in endless misery and discomfort, when He could opt for their total extinction, and thus end their misery and discomfort, just as we do for a damaged animal.
Yes, I suppose He could have done anything He wanted; He is God after all... But people are not animals. But no, if extinction, or annihilation, cessation of existence -- or however you want to put it -- had been His choice, He would have never mentioned eternal punishment, instead calling it instantaneous, momentary, fleeting (or something of the sort) punishment.

Hey let me present it to you this way, Checkpoint. I mean, I feel certain you won't buy it, but here goes anyway:

In this life, God disciplines us. He disciplines everybody, actually, believer or not (at least to some extent and in different ways). And sometimes, He places us under judgment; sometimes it is necessary for God to place judgments upon us rather than blessing. I would suggest to you that this is also love. Love is not always warm and fuzzy, so to speak; sometimes He expresses His love by allowing us to go through heavy trials and tribulation, even great suffering. We believe it's all for our good, don't we (Romans 8:28)? And because of this, we are to count all our trials and tribulations as joy, (James 1:2-4), right? Yes, that's right. Sometimes it's really hard to believe, for sure, but it's true. I would argue this is just as much His love as, well, giving us what we would consider to be really good things, or causing really great things to happen for us.

With that in mind, let's switch to the age to come, eternity. I would argue that, as hard as it is to get into our heads (because it's really impossible to grasp things from God's perspective; His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways not our ways -- Isaiah 55:8-9), that placing people under His judgment for eternity and punishing them in this manner -- even eternally -- is love. Just as much as what He will do for us, glorifying us, placing the wicked under eternal judgment in this place of "outer darkness" is a full manifestation -- to them as well as to us -- of His love. It's just a different manifestation of His love than the one we will experience. It is. Believe it or not. For sure, you can go the "not" route if you want, and I fully expect that to be the case, but I would recommend otherwise.
Checkpoint wrote: But no, this is not how the last enemy is destroyed and everything is put "under his feet".

1 Corinthians 15:

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.�
The unrepentant are not in view, here, Checkpoint (much less the place to which they will be sent). This whole passage is about what will happen on Christ's return to those who are repentant and who believe in Him. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the destruction of death -- for them -- will be complete; death will no longer be possible for us when we are glorified and our faith finally made to be sight.

Conversely, there will be nothing but death in hell. That's most certainly not to say that those who are sent there will somehow die over and over and over again, but they will be conscious and very aware that they are totally separated from His marvelous light and the One who is life, Christ Jesus. That's what death in the Bible is, Checkpoint, a separation. And in the case of the second death, it's a permanent Separation (capital 'S'). The tares from the wheat. The goats from the sheep.

But again, death -- for us -- will be swallowed up in victory. God be praised for this wonderful promise.
Checkpoint wrote: May you have the peace of God that passes all understanding.
Thank you. I pray the same for you. Grace and peace to you.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #272

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 271 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

God has, apparently, opted to destroy death, not by ending it, but by continuing on those judged worthy of it, in endless misery and discomfort, when He could opt for their total extinction, and thus end their misery and discomfort, just as we do for a damaged animal.
Yes, I suppose He could have done anything He wanted; He is God after all... But people are not animals. But no, if extinction, or annihilation, cessation of existence -- or however you want to put it -- had been His choice, He would have never mentioned eternal punishment, instead calling it instantaneous, momentary, fleeting (or something of the sort) punishment.
Yes, He could have done it the way you present it. But no, if that was His choice, He would have never mentioned eternal punishment; instead calling it eternally punishing.

What is "punishment" in a court judgment setting, after all?

It is a judicial court judgment duly carried out, such as the one Rome gave to Jesus, which sentenced him to death.

His loving kindness is better than life.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #273

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 265 by Charles]

Psalm 9:17 does not mean that people will go back to the grave from whence they originally came. The meaning is more accurately portrayed by the following translation:

"The wicked will retreat toward the Grave, all the nations who forget God."


Big difference. The only translation that makes sense.


.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #274

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:. . . if extinction, or annihilation, cessation of existence -- or however you want to put it -- had been His choice, He would have never mentioned eternal punishment, instead calling it instantaneous, momentary, fleeting (or something of the sort) punishment.
The punishment or wages for sin is the "second death":

Those who understand the word "death" understand that it is everlasting.

Those who believe that nonbelievers exist forever do not understand the word death.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #275

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to post 271 by PinSeeker]

In this life, God disciplines us. He disciplines everybody, actually, believer or not (at least to some extent and in different ways). And sometimes, He places us under judgment; sometimes it is necessary for God to place judgments upon us rather than blessing. I would suggest to you that this is also love. Love is not always warm and fuzzy, so to speak; sometimes He expresses His love by allowing us to go through heavy trials and tribulation, even great suffering. We believe it's all for our good, don't we (Romans 8:28)? And because of this, we are to count all our trials and tribulations as joy, (James 1:2-4), right? Yes, that's right. Sometimes it's really hard to believe, for sure, but it's true. I would argue this is just as much His love as, well, giving us what we would consider to be really good things, or causing really great things to happen for us.

With that in mind, let's switch to the age to come, eternity. I would argue that, as hard as it is to get into our heads (because it's really impossible to grasp things from God's perspective; His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways not our ways -- Isaiah 55:8-9), that placing people under His judgment for eternity and punishing them in this manner -- even eternally -- is love. Just as much as what He will do for us, glorifying us, placing the wicked under eternal judgment in this place of "outer darkness" is a full manifestation -- to them as well as to us -- of His love. It's just a different manifestation of His love than the one we will experience.
No, these do not compare at all, Pinseeker.

Love does discipline... but discipline has a purpose: to refine us, to train us, to teach us, to correct us. So that we may learn and do better; learn to choose the right and reject the wrong. So there is indeed love in discipline.


But if there is no hope or even chance of a person ever being refined, corrected, etc (such as in your second scenario with eternal punishment), then there is no point to the discipline of such a person. There is no longer any love in it.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #276

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Those who understand the word "death" understand that it is everlasting.
Yes, the second death is most certainly everlasting. An everlasting separation. From the One Who Himself is life, Christ Jesus.
myth-one.com wrote: Those who believe that nonbelievers exist forever do not understand the word death.
Precisely the opposite it true.

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #277

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Peace to you,
[Replying to post 271 by PinSeeker]

In this life, God disciplines us. He disciplines everybody, actually, believer or not (at least to some extent and in different ways). And sometimes, He places us under judgment; sometimes it is necessary for God to place judgments upon us rather than blessing. I would suggest to you that this is also love. Love is not always warm and fuzzy, so to speak; sometimes He expresses His love by allowing us to go through heavy trials and tribulation, even great suffering. We believe it's all for our good, don't we (Romans 8:28)? And because of this, we are to count all our trials and tribulations as joy, (James 1:2-4), right? Yes, that's right. Sometimes it's really hard to believe, for sure, but it's true. I would argue this is just as much His love as, well, giving us what we would consider to be really good things, or causing really great things to happen for us.

With that in mind, let's switch to the age to come, eternity. I would argue that, as hard as it is to get into our heads (because it's really impossible to grasp things from God's perspective; His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways not our ways -- Isaiah 55:8-9), that placing people under His judgment for eternity and punishing them in this manner -- even eternally -- is love. Just as much as what He will do for us, glorifying us, placing the wicked under eternal judgment in this place of "outer darkness" is a full manifestation -- to them as well as to us -- of His love. It's just a different manifestation of His love than the one we will experience.
No, these do not compare at all, Pinseeker.
Absolutely they do. Read on...
tam wrote: Love does discipline... but discipline has a purpose: to refine us, to train us, to teach us, to correct us. So that we may learn and do better; learn to choose the right and reject the wrong.
For believers and unbelievers in this life, yes. His discipline -- and judgment -- is a kindness... a grace and indeed a love... meant to lead us to repentance from sin (Romans 2:3-4)

In eternity, though, for believers, there will be no sin, so no need for repentance, and so no longer any need for that particular grace. For unbelievers, however, there will no longer be any grace, but only God's justice, which requires this eternal punishment, even death, which, again, is understood correctly as a separation (rather than annihilation, extinction, or cessation of existence).

For unbelievers, it's true also, but only in this life. So there is indeed love in discipline.
tam wrote: But if there is no hope or even chance of a person ever being refined, corrected, etc (such as in your second scenario with eternal punishment), then there is no point to the discipline of such a person. There is no longer any love in it.
Not the case at all, with either of your assertions here. See above. When a parent disciplines/punishes his/her child, their may be a righteous anger (this is always the case with God), but a full and enduring love should also be present (which, again, is always true with God).

As I said to Checkpoint, you're buying this is not required... by me. And, even in the case of the Lord, it is not required for obtaining salvation or being a Christian. But it is most assuredly true.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #278

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Yes, He could have done it the way you present it. But no, if that was His choice, He would have never mentioned eternal punishment; instead calling it eternally punishing.
LOL! Checkpoint! My goodness. Eternal punishment is eternally punishing. Oh, my.
Checkpoint wrote: What is "punishment" in a court judgment setting, after all? It is a judicial court judgment duly carried out, such as the one Rome gave to Jesus, which sentenced him to death.
Death in God's infinite, eternal view is different than death in man's finite, temporal view in the sense that it is a separation rather than a cessation of existence. I've said it many times -- because God says it in His Word -- and will continue if necessary.

The better example -- if you want to liken the temporal to the eternal -- is life imprisonment. That is the apples-to-apples comparison. Those under the finished judgment of the court of law live out their temporal, physical lives under this judgment, in punishment, and away from free society (imprisoned)... And it is a torment to them, even a flame, their worm that does not die. And this is justice satisfied, and not "hate."
Checkpoint wrote: His loving kindness is better than life.
Actually, I would say, rather, that His loving kindness is life. This is the covenant God made with Adam and renewed with Noah and is applicable to all persons.

And annihilation (or extinction, or cessation of existence) is very much the opposite of loving kindness, in addition to being a breaking of that covenant -- which God would never do -- and wholly unsatisfying of His justice.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #279

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:Those who understand the word "death" understand that it is everlasting.
Yes, the second death is most certainly everlasting. An everlasting separation. From the One Who Himself is life, Christ Jesus.
So the wages of sin is "an everlasting separation from Christ Jesus."
...the wages of sin is [strike]death[/strike] an everlasting separation from Christ Jesus; (PinSeeker 6:23)
How it that different from what they have now?

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #280

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: So the wages of sin is "an everlasting separation from Christ Jesus."
Yes, and from the grace of God -- and from the New Heaven and New Earth -- which is death. I've been very clear on this, as is the Bible.
myth-one.com wrote:
...the wages of sin is [strike]death[/strike] an everlasting separation from Christ Jesus; (PinSeeker 6:23)
How it that different from what they have now?
LOL! PinSeeker 6:23... That's funny. Nope. See above.

Anyway... Well, right now, they are still experiencing the grace of God (even though they scoff at this notion, considering it foolishness). This will not be the case for unbelievers in eternity. Again, I've been very clear on this many times. God's Word is clear.

Grace and peace to you.

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