Contradictions Schmondrapictions

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is simply this: Why should any Christian care that there are contradictions in the Bible?

I used to play an old text game (a MUD) with a particularly brilliant, but also very vindictive and nasty programmer and owner.

One of the rules was that you had to be in character at all times, except whispers. There were also a lot of roleplaying rules that contradicted each other. For example, one rule said you could discuss your level if you phrased it as how many times you have trained at the inn, whereas in another place it said you could not discuss your level at all. He regularly exp fined people for discussing how many times they had trained at the inn, but he would exclude others.

When people he liked would break a rule, they would not be punished, because, you see, they were only following this other rule.

When people he disliked would do the exact same thing, they would be punished for breaking that first rule.

If God is so powerful that he can likewise determine what is good and evil, why shouldn't there be contradictions in the Bible and who cares? Presumably God can do what a mere visual basic programmer can, and determine right and wrong on the spot, through favouritism. He has every right, if it's his world in the first place.

Does this mean there's any point in following any of God's rules? I mean, he's free to punish you for following rules or reward you for breaking them. He's not bound by the laws he creates and he's free to make exceptions to any and all of them, right?

...Or do good and evil mean something regardless of what anyone (including God!) say about them?

[JehovahsWitness]

The question for debate is simply this: Why should any Christian care that there are contradictions in the Bible?

Dont you mean why any Christian care *IF* there are contradictions in the Bible? (The way you have put it forces anyone responding to accept an unproven premise and amojnts to a loaded question).


Clarification appreciated,


JW




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[Purple Knight]

I didn't mean to use the word "that" that way.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[JehovahsWitness]

Dont you mean why any Christian care *IF* there are contradictions in the Bible? (The way you have put it forces anyone responding to accept an unproven premise and amounts to a loaded question).

I didn't mean to use the word "that" that way.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Well I would say that its important that the bible has no contradictions as if it did that would lead to confusion and undermine trust in its content.



JW

[Purple Knight]

Well I would say that its important that the bible has no contradictions as if it did that would lead to confusion and undermine trust in its content.

Would you extend that to the laws themselves, for people, also having to be clear, consistent, and fair?

Not because of any law in the nature of the universe or restriction on God, but merely because this is how people understand things, and we may easily misunderstand if there are double standards. Not having double standards would help us understand what is expected of us.

I'm not trying to catch you in anything, I'm just trying to get a handle on the God is automatically good perspective. It's his universe. He defines right and wrong. So fine, he can make it so genocide isn't evil if he does it, or if certain favoured individuals or groups do it, but perhaps he shouldn't, merely because that will confuse people.

Do I have this right?

Note: Not implying God has done any of these things; all concepts in this post are hypothetical only. Genocide is an example of something generally considered evil, not something I am implying God has actually done.

[JehovahsWitness]

Would you extend that to the laws themselves, for people, also having to be clear, consistent, and fair?
.... So fine, [GOD] can make it so genocide isn't evil if he does it, ...Do I have this right?.

Can you conceive (even if its only intellectually) the possibility that your interpretation of scripture might possibly be incorrect, even perverted?

Could it be that you see "genocide" when there is no genocide?

Could it be that you see bad, what is good and what you perceive as good what is in reality bad?

It seems to me some think themselves oh so progressive in saying, "Well thats bad/evil/wrong BUT I accept that God has the right to thus behave" instead of questioning whether their own moral conditioning and biblical education or lack thereoff is utterly perverted.


Suffice it to say, that I do not accet the premise upon which your question is based.

ISAIAH 5:20 - NIV

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

JW

[Zzyzx]

.

Can you conceive (even if its only intellectually) the possibility that your interpretation of scripture might possibly be incorrect, even perverted?

Yes I can. It makes no difference in my life one way or another since I have no emotional or psychological attachment to any interpretation.

Can you? If you are wrong about scripture what difference would that make in your life?

[Wootah]

The question for debate is simply this: Why should any Christian care that there are contradictions in the Bible?

I used to play an old text game (a MUD) with a particularly brilliant, but also very vindictive and nasty programmer and owner.

One of the rules was that you had to be in character at all times, except whispers. There were also a lot of roleplaying rules that contradicted each other. For example, one rule said you could discuss your level if you phrased it as how many times you have trained at the inn, whereas in another place it said you could not discuss your level at all. He regularly exp fined people for discussing how many times they had trained at the inn, but he would exclude others.

When people he liked would break a rule, they would not be punished, because, you see, they were only following this other rule.

When people he disliked would do the exact same thing, they would be punished for breaking that first rule.

If God is so powerful that he can likewise determine what is good and evil, why shouldn't there be contradictions in the Bible and who cares? Presumably God can do what a mere visual basic programmer can, and determine right and wrong on the spot, through favouritism. He has every right, if it's his world in the first place.

Does this mean there's any point in following any of God's rules? I mean, he's free to punish you for following rules or reward you for breaking them. He's not bound by the laws he creates and he's free to make exceptions to any and all of them, right?

...Or do good and evil mean something regardless of what anyone (including God!) say about them?

I've been thinking on total depravity today, not sure I believe in total depravity but I do believe in our sin nature and that given the opportunity we would all be the worst kind of god imaginable. Dungeon Masters and bureaucrats show that nature so well.

There is just no point worshipping a god of will. Most people probably do worship their gods out of fear.

If God was not the Word, if love was not in essence a promise, then I would not be interested in God.

[Purple Knight]

Could it be that you see bad, what is good and what you perceive as good what is in reality bad?

No, because I'm making no judgment about good or bad. I'm asking you.

Can you conceive (even if its only intellectually) the possibility that your interpretation of scripture might possibly be incorrect, even perverted?

Could it be that you see "genocide" when there is no genocide?

Sure. Let's make a new word for killing every last Amalekite or wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah that means exactly what genocide means, only without the negative connotation.

We'll call it jenocide, short for justified genocide.

So I'll ask basically the same question, just using new words. In fact, I'll just omit using the word genocide and describe the act.

When God wipes out (or, orders to be wiped out) every last one of something, it's not wrong, precisely because God is the arbiter of right and wrong in the first place, right?

It seems to me some think themselves oh so progressive in saying, "Well thats bad/evil/wrong BUT I accept that God has the right to thus behave" instead of questioning whether their own moral conditioning and biblical education or lack thereoff is utterly perverted.

If you're claiming that wiping out (or ordering to be wiped out) every last one of something is actually permissible, even potentially permissible, for anyone, that's a bold claim.

Honestly I do see having a different standard for God as progressive. I see it as a lack of one-dimensional whiner thinking that goes, "But, it was okay when he did it!" If you have a reason (or even just a statement) that there is actually one moral standard for all sentient beings, please say so.

Suffice it to say, that I do not accept the premise upon which your question is based.

If there's a hidden premise I'll remove it. Frankly I see it as a basic question.

Does God have special moral privilege Humans do not? Is it possible for the same act to be right when God does it and wrong for a Human?

[Purple Knight]

I've been thinking on total depravity today, not sure I believe in total depravity but I do believe in our sin nature and that given the opportunity we would all be the worst kind of god imaginable. Dungeon Masters and bureaucrats show that nature so well.

Well, they can be horrible and unfair. There are also DMs who are fair, but they get burnt out because it's actually a huge effort, and people inherently question you more, not less, when you make that effort. It's almost like choosing to be fair is saying, "Yeah, I'm not actually the god of this world. I don't make the decisions," and inviting everyone to twist the rules to their own interpretation and force their way.

My experience is that because of this reaction, good DMs usually quit. Bad ones get the respect they need, and they don't.

I quit the last D&D group I was a member of because of this. We played Friday and Saturday, and the good DM's game ran on Friday. It was the same group of people and they would abuse fair Mr. Friday and suddenly all fall in line for Mr. Saturday who would kind of pick on and torture peoples' characters.

I wasn't the one getting picked on, but I did point out that the rules lawyering would only come up during Mr. Friday's game. Mr. Friday actually had a better handle on the rules, while Mr. Saturday would often use the wrong rules. Nevertheless, Mr. Friday's word was constantly challenged at every turn, slowing down the game, and Mr. Saturday was always let to have his way. If you showed him the rule that proved he was wrong, your character would be the next one he tortured. I didn't bother about it, but I never challenged Mr. Friday either. They would always say for Mr. Saturday, "His game, his rules," so I applied that to Mr. Friday as well because that is my nature. (Mr. Friday happened to be right roughly 100% of the time, because he was just that kind of DM, and the challenges would be rather ludicrous stretching and twisting of the rules.)

I did point out that they treated Mr. Friday horribly because he was fair and just, and then I left.

There is just no point worshipping a god of will. Most people probably do worship their gods out of fear.

If God was not the Word, if love was not in essence a promise, then I would not be interested in God.

I sometimes like to consider this thought experiment: What if the Devil became as powerful as God, and God's power was transposed to that of a powerful fallen angel?

Now, the Devil makes the rules. Would he be God?

Most people say no, oddly enough.

Even though now, Lucifer the Light decides the rules (and when to break them), now he's the one who determines which behaviours are rewarded and which ones are punished, he can send you to Hell or place you in Heaven... that doesn't change what is fundamentally right or wrong.

Most people will say, well then, let me be damned for what is good, because it is still good.

Yet they don't seem to quite get it when I try to explain to them that this is what all of theology is to me and why I am atheist.