The Importance of Biblical detail being exact

[Thomas123]

This Bible stuff is old.
I personally engage with Biblical detail. I enjoy it!
It does not constrain me within it's literal boundaries.
You might well, be critical of this approach to the Bible.

I love when Noah releases the dove!

Let's use this example of detail to express our opinions on this contentious issue.

Is the 'Noah and the Dove ' detail important to the Biblical Flood discussion.

The importance of Biblical detail being exact!
Is this a 'Deal Breaker' issue for you?

[Thomas123]

Wiki
"The domestic pigeon (Columba livia domestica) is a pigeon subspecies that was derived from the rock dove (also called the rock pigeon). The rock pigeon is the world's oldest domesticated bird. Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets mention the domestication of pigeons more than 5,000 years ago, as do Egyptian hieroglyphics. Research suggests that domestication of pigeons occurred as early as 10,000 years ago."

"In ancient Mesopotamia, sailors would release pigeons, and ravens, from their ships. They would track the birds to orient themselves toward land. A thousand years later, you have the story of Noah in the Old Testament. Around this time you also start seeing pigeons featured in sculptures, jewelry and hair needles."

Hornell, J. (1946). The Role of Birds in Early Navigation. Antiquity, 20(79), 142-149. doi:10.1017/S0003598X00019530

"It is not generally recognized how important a part was played by birds in the guidance of early voyagers when sailing on the uncharted seas of the ancient world, and how their regular migrations year by year and season by season, along definite routes have contributed to the discovery of many lands and isolated islands. We know that Columbus made his first American landfall by noting the south-westerly direction taken by great flocks of small field-birds seen flying overhead in the evening towards land as yet out of sight of those aboard the ships; we know, too, that the significance of their flight was at once recognized, for did not Pinzon point out its meaning to his crew by his remark Those birds know their business (Morison, 1841, 664-5)?
How true his words were we now know, for it is about the time of year (October) when Columbus saw these battalions of birds darkening the sky, that certain species of landbirds set out from the eastern shores of North America by a southerly route, via Bermuda, to seek a warmer climate and a more plentiful supply of food."

[marco]

Is the 'Noah and the Dove ' detail important to the Biblical Flood discussion.

The importance of Biblical detail being exact!
Is this a 'Deal Breaker' issue for you?

The best fiction picks up tiny details through the writer's skill in observation. The Noah tale has a much older Sumerian version where a dove, a swallow and then a raven are released. I've spent a little time trying to make sense of Sumerian cuneiform in a university course; it is very hard, but what feels good is not the detail, but the voice that shouts loudly through the centuries.

When I read Ovid in his Metamorphoses, Deucalion takes the place of Noah. There are different twists but all entertaining. The sadness, I think, is that Noah is sometimes taken literally. And even when he is ridiculously given the age of 600 when he starts as an apprentice shipbuilder, people still believe. I think he lived beyond 900 - whereas his Sumerian equivalent was made immortal.

[Thomas123]

marco "I've spent a little time trying to make sense of Sumerian cuneiform in a university course; it is very hard, but what feels good is not the detail, but the voice that shouts loudly through the centuries."

This interests me greatly, what is this voice that you refer to.?

[Thomas123]

https://www.ancient.eu/mythology/

"The ancient myths still resonate with a modern audience precisely because the ancient writers crafted them toward individual interpretation, leaving each person who heard the story to recognize the meaning in the tale for themselves and respond to it accordingly. "

Is this the answer I seek, marco?

It is described with reference to a distinct difference between a myth and a sermon?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is the 'Noah and the Dove ' detail important to the Biblical Flood discussion.

The importance of Biblical detail being exact!

Accurate detail lends credence to an account. For example that Noah sent out a dove (rather than say an ostrich or a turkey) builds confidence that the bible is truthful down to its minutest. For some interesting facts about doves see my earlier post HERE http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 82#p985382

It's often the details that helpmus see that the bible can be read as history rather than fable or mythology so in that it is important.





JW


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BIBLICAL INERRANCY , AUTHORSHIP & TRANSMISSION

[Tcg]

Accurate detail lends credence to an account. For example that Noah sent out a dove (rather than say an ostrich or a turkey) builds confidence that the bible is truthful down to its minutest.

Given the perfectly unreasonable details that must be accepted before reaching this point of the story, if the Bible stated that Noah sent out an ostrich, I'd expect some apologists to defend this detail. Perhaps they'd explain that ostriches could fly back then or that they swam to accomplish their mission.



Tcg

[Zzyzx]

.

Accurate detail lends credence to an account. For example that Noah sent out a dove (rather than say an ostrich or a turkey) builds confidence that the bible is truthful down to its minutest.

Speaking of 'truthful down to its minutest', said dove supposedly returned with an olive leaf. Genesis 8.11 and the dove came back to him in the evening, and lo, in her mouth a freshly plucked olive leaf;

Have biologists confirmed that olive trees produce or retain leaves after extended periods of submersion? Since you mention 'accurate detail', kindly verify the accuracy of the 'freshly plucked olive leaf'.

[Thomas123]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

https://www.quora.com/In-Gen-8-11-a-dov ... =155473708

Biblical detail is an indulgent minefield. You can debate from either side of this subject. Read the second submission from the arborist here.

If we hide behind the cognitive wall ,that is detailed minutia exactitude ,we restrict real consideration of this very old book's value. People become entrenched in firm theistic and nontheistic mindsets . They become like cartons on a shelf!

Getting around this impasse using negotiated compromise is perceived as too drastic a move, for both sides, and therein, lies the difficulty and the stagnation.

[Tcg]

.

Accurate detail lends credence to an account. For example that Noah sent out a dove (rather than say an ostrich or a turkey) builds confidence that the bible is truthful down to its minutest.

Speaking of 'truthful down to its minutest', said dove supposedly returned with an olive leaf. Genesis 8.11 and the dove came back to him in the evening, and lo, in her mouth a freshly plucked olive leaf;

Have biologists confirmed that olive trees produce or retain leaves after extended periods of submersion? Since you mention 'accurate detail', kindly verify the accuracy of the 'freshly plucked olive leaf'.

There are a few details to consider here. The first is that while trees can survive in standing water for some time, few can survive complete submersion more than a month:

• The Effects of Standing Water and Flooding on Trees and Landscape Plants
  
  Tree survival and recovery after flooding depends on how much trees are covered by water. Some species can survive standing in several feet of water for months, but if their foliage is completely covered they can die in as quickly as one month. In fact, very few species can tolerate more than one month of complete submersion.
  
  https://www.nativelanddesign.com/blog/t ... ape-plants

Another consideration is that the ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. Mount Ararat itself is almost 17,000 feet. I wasn't able to find the exact height of the tree line for Ararat, but 5,000 feet would be a reasonable estimate. Given this, it would be very unlikely that the flooding would have receded below the tree line by the time the dove was sent out. There very likely would have been no dry land at the elevation where trees can grow.

Some might argue that the olive leaf the dove found was the result of new growth. This is problematic in light of the details in the dove story:

• Genesis 8:8 Then he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no place to set her foot, and she returned to him to the ark, for the waters were still on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her and brought her into the ark with him. 10 He waited another seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark. 11 And the dove came back to him in the evening, and behold, in her mouth was a freshly plucked olive leaf. So Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth.
  
  <bolding mine>

When the dove was first sent out, water covered the whole earth. Seven days later, the dove came back with an olive leaf. It takes roughly 40 days for an olive seed to germinate. Obviously, seven days does not provide enough time for an olive plant to produce leaves.

So, it is inconceivable that olive trees could survive +/- 12 months of submersion. The land that had dried up when the dove was sent out very likely would have been at too high an elevation for trees to grow. Seven days does not allow enough time for an olive seed to germinate and produce leaves.

Given all these details, the story of the dove and the olive leaf couldn't have happened as described.


Tcg