Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 189 by Goose]

Or Goose....

The colours represent something other than a colour. For example in the 6th chapter we have the four horses of the apocalypse, each a different colour, each colour representing something different. Red for example is the colour of passion but also generally the colour of bloodshed, danger or WAR, black is often the colour of death. One approach then is not to look for a literal colour in a national flag but to look to scripture to see if each colour mentioned in Chap 9 might be symbolic of something else.

Just a thought,


JW

[Goose]

Or goose....

The colours represent something other than a colour. For example in the 6th chapter we have the four horses of the apocalypse, each a different colour, each colour representing something different. Red for example is the colour of passion but also generally the colour of bloodshed, danger or WAR or war, black often the colour of death. One approach then is not to look for a literal colour in a national flag but to look to scripture to see if each colour mentioned in Chap 9 might be symbolic of something else.

Just a thought,

That's fine, I wasn’t necessarily suggesting Revelations 9:16ff was referring to flag colour. I was responding to Diagoras who had picked up on my reference to the riders wearing breastplates with the colours red, blue, and yellow as though it could mean national colours. My follow up point to him being that there are numerous countries (or combinations of countries) that could meet at least some of the criteria put forward in Revelations 9:16ff if we run with that interpretation and allow for some symbolic meaning. Not least of which could be America as well.

To your point. Yes, the colours could represent something other than the colours of a nation. That’s the thing with a genre of literature that is highly symbolic, it could be referring to many things. If you or others want to search the scriptures to see if those colours may have deeper symbolic meaning be my guest. It’s interesting. But that’s all it is at this point in my opinion, interesting.

Where I personally draw the line is to begin looking for concrete analogous examples in the real world with the implication that we are indeed in the last days, that Revelations is unfolding before our eyes in our generation. As though the mystery of the revelation has been unlocked to that person(s), that they have the correct interpretation of Revelations. And that that interpretation is to inform us as to how things are about to unfold. Frankly, in my opinion, holding that kind of certainty can be dangerous when it comes to apocalyptic literature.

In fairness though, it’s an irresistible tendency of many Christians in regards to Revelations. Try to see where we think it may be happening or about to happen. We’ve all done it to some degree, myself included. Otseng did it.

Revelation refers to an army with 200 million troops. If this number is to be taken literally, this most likely would refer to China.

You responded to Otseng as though some Christians have some special knowledge about what’s next, presumably because some Christians have the correct interpretation of Revelations.

We are living through history and many Christians have a good idea what is next.

But we don’t have a good idea what is next. We really don’t.

[JehovahsWitness]

Where I personally draw the line is to begin looking for concrete analogous examples in the real world with the implication that we are indeed in the last days, that Revelations is unfolding before our eyes in our generation.

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

This is what I believe and my belief has been confirmed by seeing by far the majority of the book already fulfilled and the last few events unfolding as we speak. This belief might be considered "dangerous" or "life saving" depending on which if us is right and which of us is wrong. You of course are absolutely convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jehovahs Witness are wrong in this regard, I'm sure you'd stake your life and the lives of all you hold dear on that unshakeable conviction. I feel the same and time will tell. I assure you I take no pleasure in saying so.

Peace to you and yours and respect for your conssistently excellent posting,



JW

[William]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

We have a fairly comprehensive grasp of history from 1914 to now.

There has been everything but paradise unfolding. Why do you think 'the lords day' should be so like it has been? Is there a point to all that?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

We have a fairly comprehensive grasp of history from 1914 to now.

There has been everything but paradise unfolding. Why do you think 'the lords day' should be so like it has been? Is there a point to all that?

Did you read my post on that question?

If Jesus has been ruling since 1914 why have there been no significant improvements in world conditions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 772#883772

JW

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

We have a fairly comprehensive grasp of history from 1914 to now.

There has been everything but paradise unfolding. Why do you think 'the lords day' should be so like it has been? Is there a point to all that?

Did you read my post on that question?

If Jesus has been ruling since 1914 why have there been no significant improvements in world conditions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 772#883772

JW

You posted …

QUESTION: If God's kingdom has been in power since 1914 why have there been no significant changes on earth?

Because the bible indicates that there would be a delay between the installation or setting up of the government and the change of power. (compare Psalms 110:1). This does not mean Jesus has been inactive since 1914, indeed the scripures speak of some key event that have occurred since 1914, in heaven, invisible to humans but that have effected mankind profoundly
Quote:

- The celestial war resulting in Satan and his demons being permanetly ousted from heaven - Rev 12:10-12

- The selecting training and appointing of the last of the members of the government (Rev 14:1,3)

- The selecting, training, organizing and education of the citizens of the kingdom (Rev 7:9; Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 2:4)

- The organisation of a global government campaign puting all humans on notice of the coming change in world order (Mat 24:14)


Without these and other changes prior to the taking of kingdom power the post change era would be chaotic and largely ineffective.

Since Jesus would take up kingdom power prior to his destroying all human government and taking control of the planet, and that this event would be outside the vision of humans on earth, Jesus provided his followers with signs by which they could understand that he was indeed installed as king and that the coming change of power was imminent. This composit sign can be read in the bible in Matthew Chapter 24, Luke Chapter 21 and Mark 13.


JW

"In Heaven, invisible to humans", you say.

I put it to you that this is just make-believe on make-believe.

Can you present to us the tiniest whiff of an attempt at verifiable evidence of a "celestial war" outside the imaginations of humans ...?

Are you - or is anyone you know - an "educated citizen" who has been selected, trained and organised, and can you back this up with some sort of god-government-issued photo ID with your name on it …?

Or could all this just be illusory fantasy …?

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

We have a fairly comprehensive grasp of history from 1914 to now.

There has been everything but paradise unfolding. Why do you think 'the lords day' should be so like it has been? Is there a point to all that?

Did you read my post on that question?

[emphasis of JW's quote applied]
Contrary to the claim, life has actually been getting better. Life expectancy has increased dramatically the last 1000 years. People are actually larger, healthier because of better access to nutrition and medical care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature

[otseng]

Though there has been of course pandemics in the past, as far as I know, this is the first global pandemic that has affected every country in the world.

But why does a larger global scope imply these are the last days when there have been other, arguably worse, global pandemics in the past?

We are just in the beginning of this pandemic. Though we are seeing areas reopening, it does not mean the pandemic is over. We'll see over time how this thing progresses.

The Preterist (fulfilled) view would say these prophecies have already happened.

Myself, I don't subscribe to any particular eschatology belief. Of course there are different beliefs about how the last days will play out, but there is general consensus that there will be a last day.

From the look of things, the way Trump is handling the epidemic now is leading to a serious confrontation with China -- which I don't think will end very well for the US.

What do you mean by “serious confrontation�? Do you mean military confrontation between China and the US? If so, what evidence is there of that? So far, it seems Trump is hastening his ongoing agenda to move America’s supply chain away from China with further tariffs and the like.

It could possibly end up being a military confrontation, but Trump has escalated it from a trade war to a financial war with China by threatening to sue China and not pay their debt holdings.

First Thing: Trump's latest coronavirus take - sue China

Trump revealed his administration was conducting “serious investigations� into China’s handling of the disease outbreak, and would most likely seek “very substantial� damages from Beijing over the pandemic.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -sue-china

US news reports suggest White House officials have already considered the idea of cancelling all or part of the US$1.1 trillion debt owed to China

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... onse-white

Revelation refers to an army with 200 million troops. If this number is to be taken literally, this most likely would refer to China.

Why would it most likely be China? And Revelations shouldn’t be taken literally without some good reasons. Revelations is known to be an apocalyptic genre.

All I'm saying is if it's to be taken literally, it would most likely refer to China.

If we can say there was already ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’ in existence before COVID19 it seems to undermine the notion that COVID19 is causing or will cause ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’.

My point is not to argue what number of people starving would constitute Biblical proportions. But, what would be more relevant is the rate of increase of people. Doubling the number in a single year would be quite out of the ordinary. Again, we are only in the beginning of this pandemic. There are far too many people expecting some sort of V-shaped recovery and we'll just bounce out of this. This is not going to happen.

[William]

[Replying to post 195 by JehovahsWitness]

Did you read my post on that question?

No. Thanks for pointing it out.

- The celestial war resulting in Satan and his demons being permanetly ousted from heaven - Rev 12:10-12

I wonder what heaven was like while Satan and his demons resided there, and how much heaven has changed since the ousting...and whether the JW org has an Earth-year they can point to in regard to that event.

I also wonder where Satan and his demons were placed once ousted.

- The selecting training and appointing of the last of the members of the government (Rev 14:1,3)

- The selecting, training, organizing and education of the citizens of the kingdom (Rev 7:9; Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 2:4)

This, along with everything else, is being done secretly - in a hidden fashion...which us often associated with the practices of the occult - occult actually means 'hidden'.

As such, questions naturally get raised because of the apparent secretiveness...

Why do you think it is necessary for Jesus to be so hidden from the world while he trains and appoints?

Where on Earth is Jesus hiding?

- The organisation of a global government campaign puting all humans on notice of the coming change in world order (Mat 24:14)

Is this from the current world leadership, or from the secret government Jesus is training? Or is the current leadership those who have trained under Jesus and been placed there for that purpose?

Or is it a mixture of both types?

Without these and other changes prior to the taking of kingdom power the post change era would be chaotic and largely ineffective.

I am reminded of a similar process in nature...the usurper takes over the host from the inside out...is this an accurate and succinct interpretation of the process you are describing Jesus is currently involved with?

Since Jesus would take up kingdom power prior to his destroying all human government and taking control of the planet, and that this event would be outside the vision of humans on earth, Jesus provided his followers with signs by which they could understand that he was indeed installed as king and that the coming change of power was imminent. This composit sign can be read in the bible in Matthew Chapter 24, Luke Chapter 21 and Mark 13.

Is it possible that 'destroying' in the context explained in the process, is more of a orderly transformation as opposed to a chaotic explosive event.

If this is the case, there would seem no reason in the end that Jesus would have to make any appearance on the world stage as everything can be done secretly and have the same trans-formative effect.

Indeed, given the secretive nature of Jesus, it would seem out of character for him to make spectacular entries upon the world stage...unless he would do this for the sake of those who expect it to go that way...those 'not in the know' - as it were.

[William]

[Replying to post 193 by JehovahsWitness]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy, it is part of Gods inspired word and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

We have a fairly comprehensive grasp of history from 1914 to now.

There has been everything but paradise unfolding. Why do you think 'the lords day' should be so like it has been? Is there a point to all that?

Did you read my post on that question?

[emphasis of JW's quote applied]
Contrary to the claim, life has actually been getting better. Life expectancy has increased dramatically the last 1000 years. People are actually larger, healthier because of better access to nutrition and medical care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature

It pays to be careful with statistics;

[yt]bVG2OQp6jEQ[/yt]

It is not my intention to accept or deny that paradise is not being built right under our noses...I am wondering if all the ... apparent non-paradise associated activity I was referring to is somehow connected to the paradise event...if so, then we should be able to find traces of Jesus' activity within these events.