Other sheep - Little flock

[MissKate13]

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

Now let's look, REALLY look at what Jesus said; and what he did not say. Notice Jesus did not say .... "I have other sheep that have not arrived yet", he didn't say "I have other sheep that are not in this fold" he said "I have other sheep that are not OF this fold" . In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold". Since the gentile Christians did belong, just as legitimately as Jewish Christian in the "fold"/pen , these "other sheep" must differ in some way.

The last time we had this conversation, I shared that the sheep pen was about where the people came from. It was not about two different groups or classes of Christians. This is about people originating from different places, all being brought together as ONE flock with ONE Shepherd. In that previous conversation, I never thought to look up the word 'of', but since you brought it up here:

ἐκ ek, ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):—after, among, × are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, × hereby, + very highly, in, …ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, × thenceforth, through, × unto, × vehemently, with(-out).

Do you see?

It denotes ORIGIN.


Gentiles (even Samaritans) are not Jews. Gentiles were not and could not have been OF that sheep pen. But Christ had sheep to call who were NOT of that sheep pen. He said would bring these sheep also, and they TOO would listen to His voice and be one flock with One Shepherd.

There is no such thing as two groups of Christians separated into different 'pens' for all time. Christians do, however, come from many different places; in fact, from every tribe, nation, people and tongue. Revelation 7:9, 5:9

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”



It is simple enough for even a child to understand. But religion does its best to complicate matters with a deluge of book upon book, (ever changing) doctrine upon doctrine, interpretation upon interpretation, half-truths and even outright lies.

How are you supposed to wade through all of that? Get out of the river and turn/come to Christ. Stop drinking their (polluted) water and start drinking pure water straight from the source: Christ Jaheshua.


If anyone is thirsty let him come to ME and drink.

May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear so as to hear the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to you, "Come!" Many anyone who thirsts and anyone who wishes, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

TWO DESTINIES , ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD


To be fair, the unity enjoyed by these two distinct groups under the true shepherd is ... miraculous. Obviously those without holy spirit, that have not seen and experienced the miracle of Christian unity cannot believe such a thing is possible.

How can Christians that entertain the hope of being rulers in heaven with Christ remain humble fellow workers with those that have no such hope? How (as is the case of Jehovah's Witnesses) can a spirit anointed member of the congregation submit to an elder or a brother in a position of leadership that is NOT spirit anointed*? How can an organisation actually apply Jesus counsel that their leader is one and not divide (like the Catholics) into a clergy laity class?

In short, those that hear the Jehovah's Witnesses bible based understanding cannot believe that jesus words can come true. They think that true unity is impossible unless everyone has the same destiny. Yet the fact of the matter is, as impossible as it seems, the miracle is able to be observed in the thousands of congregations around the world: two groups, two destinies, one shepherd... ONE FLOCK!

* Eldership in the Jehovah's Witness congregation is not reserved for spirit anointed brothers








JEHOVAHS WITNESS





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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LITTLE FLOCK , THE OTHER SHEEP and ... THE KINGDOM OF GOD

[2timothy316]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #22]

Other than the Governing Body I personally don't know who else is anointed. That is the other great thing about Jehovah's Witnesses, there is no horn blowing in front of the FDS. There's no hand kissing, no calling one of them 'father', they are not celebrities. Jesus didn't demand that while on earth either and the Faithful and Discreet Slave and all anointed follow that pattern to be servants to all and think of themselves as lower than those they serve. It really is the only way I would trust such a person that is responsible for providing spiritual food. If they tried to 'lord over me' I'd be gone. All answer to one person, Jesus Christ no matter what a person's future hope is. There is one Shepherd and One Flock and we move together.

[tam]

Peace to you,

TWO DESTINIES , ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD

One Flock and One Shepherd are terms and teachings of Christ.

Two Destinies is a term and teaching of men.

Christ did not teach it. The apostles did not teach it. Paul did not teach it.

In short, those that hear the Jehovah's Witnesses bible based understanding cannot believe that jesus words can come true.

See above.

They think that true unity is impossible unless everyone has the same destiny.

Strawman.

This is not about what a person might thinks regarding unity being possible.

This is about the truth that Christ taught (and teaches).

And as can be seen from the previous, the word 'of' does not mean that there are two different groups of Christians with two different destinies. It is referring to origins; not destinations.

viewtopic.php?p=1120016#p1120016

Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

The number 144,000 is not to be taken literally. Most of Revelation is written in the figurative sense. I believe the 144,000 are the “great crowd.” And they are in heaven, not so-called Paradise earth. They are standing before the throne of God.

There is no reason to think the 144,000 is not a literal number because the Great Crowd is un-numbered.

AFTER John saw from whom the 144,000 comes from he said, "After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues."
The Great Crowd is not seen standing with the lamb. Revelation 14:1
There are clearly two groups.

One can stand before God's throne or a king is denoted as being in a favored position such as in Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29 points out.

Luke 1:19 states that Gabriel near to God even though he was on Earth.

So person can stand before God's throne but still be on earth in the sense of being an a favored position.

[Purple Knight]

In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold". Since the gentile Christians did belong, just as legitimately as Jewish Christian in the "fold"/pen , these "other sheep" must differ in some other way.


But didn't Jesus say he would bring them into the ONE FOLD ? No he did not. At no point did he say he would put the other sheep into the fold he said "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd" Since Jesus has just said the "other sheep" are not OF this fold, if he is bringing them in it must be into something else.

To me this reads like it's saying good people who aren't Christians but nonetheless are sheep and not goats.

Other sheep, who have been led to other pastures, but still know righteousness when it calls out to them.

I do feel bad for those that have been shaved of their wool, with goat horns and beards pasted on to them, who have been trained to think that ramming heads and eating tin cans is righteousness.

[myth-one.com]

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.

Christianity divides mankind into two groups -- believers and nonbelievers. Believers will gain everlasting life and nonbelievers will be destroyed:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The smaller group or "little flock" are those who believe, and the much larger group of nonbelievers will be the “great crowd of other sheep." Combined together, they comprise all of mankind who ever lived.

The little flock of believers will gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32)

The 144,000 is not the entire "little flock." They are a small subset of the little flock of believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold". Since the gentile Christians did belong, just as legitimately as Jewish Christian in the "fold"/pen , these "other sheep" must differ in some other way.


But didn't Jesus say he would bring them into the ONE FOLD ? No he did not. At no point did he say he would put the other sheep into the fold he said "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd" Since Jesus has just said the "other sheep" are not OF this fold, if he is bringing them in it must be into something else.

To me this reads like it's saying good people who aren't Christians but nonetheless are sheep and not goats.

Hello knight,


This is deep stuff here even I had to go back and do a little extra research. But to address your point , this illustration has nothing to do with being good or bad (or not so good) , all the parties concerned are approved Christians and the illustration does not concern non believers. Its basically about the organisational structure of an alternitve world system, the gathering of an alternative world government and its potential subjects and the chronological ordering of events.


I presented the basic concepts in post #5-9
viewtopic.php?p=1119722#p1119722

[Revelations won]

Dear MissKate13,

In your OP you said:

“What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.”


These are great and very important questions!

After observing the various answers it is obvious that these are simply “private interpretations” of scripture and consist of the philosophies of man.

My response to your first question: There is absolutely no scripture that states that “the other sheep” spoken of by Christ “are the great crowd”.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ also commanded the twelve apostles to:

Matthew10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ himself testified:
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.I am unaware of any scripture that states that “the little flock are the 144,000.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It is self evident that Christ was sent unto only the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

There is no scripture which states “the “other sheep” are the great crowd”.

There is also no verse that states the “ “little flock of 144,000.”

There is also no scripture that states “great crowd of other sheep,” .

Kind regards,
RW

[myth-one.com]

This is deep stuff here even I had to go back and do a little extra research. But to address your point , this illustration has nothing to do with being good or bad (or not so good) , all the parties concerned are approved Christians and the illustration does not concern non believers.

All believers shall inherit everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

And Jesus refers to the "little flock" in the book of Luke as those who shall be given the Kingdom of God:

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32)

No nonbeliever is going to be given the Kingdom of God -- so the "little flock" only includes every Christian!

Therefore, the other sheep not of the little flock can certainly NOT be Christians as you claim -- as all Christians are in the little flock!

Unless, one can be in two flocks at the same time.

<================================>

The little flock is Christian humans.

Humans not of the little flock are all nonbelievers.

So the two groups, or flocks, are believers and nonbelievers!

Believers are the little flock (the few) and nonbelievers are those not of the little flock (or the many):

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)