The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #819]
You're still wrong yet still don't know why. But move on right? I mean accuracy is not your thing correct? I'll give you a one word clue...ready? Legality.

[onewithhim]

Peace to you all,

The Jews are one group. The Samaritans are another group. The Gentiles are yet another group. Even Israel could be said to have come from 12 groups (which then became two groups: Jews and Samaritans; Jews containing two tribes, and Samaritans containing 10 tribes).

The point is not that the sheep come from different groups, or folds, or tribes, or nations.

The point is that Christ's sheep are called and gathered (by Him) and all become ONE flock with one Shepherd.

Christ did not put walls up between His sheep. He did not keep them separate. They were simply from different "sheep pens"... but are all gathered together to become one flock, with one Shepherd.




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

It is true, Christians are all of one flock---we are all Jehovah's worshippers through His Son Christ Jesus. What you say about coming "from different 'sheep pens'" is what we've been saying. The 144,000 are from one pen, or, fold, and the "other sheep" are from another pen---not of the same fold as the 144,000. Yet we're all one flock worshipping God and following Christ's example.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

how many groups of sheep did Jesus initially refer to in John 10:16 ?

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups ....

You claim Jesus did not speak of two groups of sheep. When pushed on this, you refuse to answer claiming establishing whether Jesus spoke of two groups is "irrelevant". Of course the question isnt irrelevant. Firstly because it establishes what Jesus actuality means when he is speaking. He said some words, how can we assume undertanding what he said is irrelevant? If you heard the end of a conversation and someone say, "... and then there was one" it seems obvious there were more than one to begin with or at the very least, before that point.

If mother is going to accuse little Johnny of eating a cookie from a plate of freshly cooked cookies it is totally relevant whether she knew how many were there to start with. If she did, it is not a baseless accusation. If she did not she has no basis for claiming he took one. In short the question of how many becomes the basis for everything that happened next

Understanding how many groups there were to start with it is the basis for understanding what eventually happens to the "other sheep" (one group). Indeed the question of how many groups of sheep goes part way to identifying both groups.

I have other sons that are not in this room. But all my sons are in this room

.

And finally as I said, the question of how many groups of sheep is relevant because if there is only ONE group to begin with, Jesus words become contradictory and nonsensical. Such a reading implies he had "other" sheep, and then claim the sheep inside the pen are his ONLY sheep. This makes utter nonsense of Jesus' words at JOHN 10:16.


In and case, the question of how many groups of sheep Jesus referred to in John 16:10 was relevant enough for you to make the following statement

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups ....

Do you still stand by your statement HERE?

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... THE MILLENIUM

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #823]

Enough!

O.K. JW, you win, I lose. Yay!!

Jesus speaks of "the sheep", verses 1,7,8, 11,12,13,15; "his sheep", verses 3,4; "my sheep", verse 14; and "other sheep", verse 16.

Two groups.

Can we please move on now?

You choose, this time, as to where and what.

[JehovahsWitness]

Two groups.

Thank you. It's not a matter of "winning" its just a matter of respecting what Jesus did or did not say, and that is often very important.



Anyway, you originally claimed that nothing in the bible indicated there would be two groups of Christians, yet in John 10:16 Jesus spoke of two groups of sheep both of which belong to him. (I think there is no issue that the first group (the group in the fold /sheep pen) belong to him even if he didn't specifically say so. Referencing the second group he said "I have other sheep" so its clear wherever they were at the time of speaking they belonged to Jesus ).

Two groups or catagorizations of sheep. If we take the "sheep" to represent "followers" and Christian to mean "follower of Christ" then Jesus did indeed indicate there would be two groups of Christians*. And interestingly, at the time of Jesus speaking, that 2nd group where not in evidence.. In other words the 2nd group would become manifeste some time in the future of Jesus speaking.


* NOTE We are not talking'of two "types of Christian" there is only one type of Christian but two groups in that some are inside the pen/fold and some are not. The only difference between the sheep seems to be their location. Class or "classification" is not to be confused with status, rank or value.





Continued below.. .

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000

[JehovahsWitness]

As for what Jesus said would happened, you yourself eloguently point out somethjng signifiant....

As a result of being part of this discussion, I have read and reread the relevant verses to gain a much more balanced grasp of what he says in those 16 verses about himself, his sheep, and the fold or sheep pen.

In that process I changed my view on the fold. I had thought he had spoken of two, but then realised there is only one: "the fold/this fold".

He does not say his "other sheep" are from another or a different fold.

He says they are not (now) "of this fold", and then goes on to say, "I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be..."

Emphasis MINE


I would add ...

• He does not say his "other sheep" are bought into the existing fold.

• He does not say he will build another second fold for the arriving "other sheep"

Instead of speaking about uniting them into one fold he spoke of uniting the two groups into one FLOCK.


QUESTIONS

• Does he indicate he will remove or destroy the fold?

• If not how can the two groups possibly become one flock ?

Supplementary question

• Does one have to be the same to be united?

JW



RELATED POSTS

Does the bible support the idea of two different groups of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1022933#p1022933

Do different hopes or destinies make different types of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1005079#p1005079

HEAVEN

WHY does God call some to heavenly life from the earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846997

Do ALL good people go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p878615

EARTH

What is being refered to when the bible speaks about a PARADISE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p855832

Is there scriptural support for the idea that the Messianic promises of a paradise will be fullfilled, on this our planet EARTH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#p855568

Can the bibles promised be described as "heaven on earth"?
viewtopic.php?p=1044147#p1044147

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE EARTHLY PARADISE and ... THE 144, 000

[otseng]

Since I reported the last post of accusing me of things I don't do and the poster is continually attacking me personally, I reported his post this time, BUT since I did a translation of my report in Google and doble checked, I needed to edit the report ... since I can not do that, I repost my report here, with the fixes it needed:

This forum member accuses me of things that I do not do and posts all the time with attacks on me instead of posting about the ideas that are discussed in the conversation thread. It has already become a habit for him to attack me as a person. I think someone should tell him what the forum rules on personal attacks are. Thank you.

I guess the moderator can fix my report now and delete this post. Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks.

Since we are speaking in the third person here, I will say thus:

Said poster did not attack any poster, much less the author of this post -- and would never purposely do so -- but rather asked the author if what seemed to be the case was truly the case. The exact quote in question (note its interrogative nature):
.

"You appreciate twisting of another's words and putting words in their mouths?"

.
Now, that may in fact be -- but the poster doesn't know for sure -- inconvenient for the author, but whether it is or not is not a matter of concern on the part of the poster.

This all seems quite silly to me, but be that as it may, grace and peace to the author, and all others.

Moderator Comment

As a general comment, please cease making comments about posters, whether in the first person, second person, or third person.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[2timothy316]

Two groups.

Thank you. It's not a matter of "winning" its just a matter of respecting what Jesus did or did not say, and that is often very important.

JW didn't win anything Checkpoint, you did. Having knowledge of truth makes a person a winner and opens doors to more truth and knowledge.

[tam]

Peace to you onewithhim,

Peace to you all,

The Jews are one group. The Samaritans are another group. The Gentiles are yet another group. Even Israel could be said to have come from 12 groups (which then became two groups: Jews and Samaritans; Jews containing two tribes, and Samaritans containing 10 tribes).

The point is not that the sheep come from different groups, or folds, or tribes, or nations.

The point is that Christ's sheep are called and gathered (by Him) and all become ONE flock with one Shepherd.

Christ did not put walls up between His sheep. He did not keep them separate. They were simply from different "sheep pens"... but are all gathered together to become one flock, with one Shepherd.




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

It is true, Christians are all of one flock---we are all Jehovah's worshippers through His Son Christ Jesus. What you say about coming "from different 'sheep pens'" is what we've been saying.

But it is not the same thing at all. You (your religion) keep those 'sheep' separate. Your 'other sheep' are not the brothers of Christ, nor the Bride, nor are they anointed with holy spirit, nor will they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. And that right there contradicts this teaching about a Shepherd and His sheep. The entire flock follows the voice of the Shepherd, going wherever He leads them.

The 144,000 are from one pen, or, fold, and the "other sheep" are from another pen---not of the same fold as the 144,000.

No one Christ spoke to at that moment had yet been anointed, so how could He have been talking about what you consider to be 'the 144 000'?

It does not matter where a person is FROM (Judah, Samariah, Phoenecia, etc) ... it matters that Christ makes them all one in Him. They ALL enter through the gate that is Christ, and therefore they are all gathered together into the same place, the same CITY (the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, the Church. See Ephesian 5:22-32; 2 Corinth 11:2).

Not separate still, but one in Christ.

Yet we're all one flock worshipping God and following Christ's example.

Is that actually true though? (I mean, it is supposed to be true, but that doesn't mean that all who profess to be Christian are following - or being taught/permitted to follow - the example that He set for us.)


For example: At the last supper, not only did Christ command the apostles (who are part of His flock, His sheep) to eat and drink of the bread and wine that mean His body and His blood, and to keep doing this in remembrance of Him, He also set the example at that same supper, for them to wash one another's feet (as He had done for them).

But your religion teaches that the command to eat and drink only applies to the "144 000", right? So there is a difference right there, with only some obeying this command and the "other sheep" not obeying this command. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing, in what is written from Christ or from the apostles or from Paul that teaches this difference.

(I do not know what your religion teaches re: the washing of feet.)


**


This really is not that complicated, except for a doctrine that has created two different groups of Christians: some who are the brothers of Christ and some who are not. Some who are the Bride (the Church) and some who are not. Some who are anointed (who receive holy spirit) and some who do not. Some who will reign with Christ and some who will not. Some who are spiritual Israel and some who are not.

Where did Christ teach these things? Where did the apostles? Where did Paul?



Christ is simply speaking to the Jews (this sheep pen)... and says that He also has OTHERS to bring in besides just them, to become one flock (one group), with one shepherd/one gate/one door!


(I apologize to Checkpoint - peace to you - because I missed one of his posts to me earlier on that touched upon this.)

**

See also the following response to many of jw's questions about there being two groups, from this thread a few pages back:

viewtopic.php?p=1022202#p1022202





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace again to you all,

[Replying to tam in post #829]


From Ephesians 2:


For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.


Christ tore walls down; He did not put walls back up between His sheep, His flock. He did not teach that there are two groups of Christians, with two different callings/hopes, with some who are His brothers and some who are not...

(He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.")

.... He did not teach that some Christians are His Bride, the New Jerusalem, and other Christians are not; or that some will follow the Lamb wherever He goes; and some will not; or that some are spiritual Israel and some are not; or that only one group of Christians may partake of the bread and the wine/body and blood of Christ, and others may not; or that some Christians are part of the new covenant and others are not.


Christ - first and foremost - did not teach these things. The apostles also did not teach these things. Paul also did not teach these things.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy