The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[POI]

Following up with the appeal to authority fallacy doesn't help your point.

Allow me to provide context here. Yes, you can "technically" say this. And I do not blame you for doing so because then you get to provide me with a rubberstamp to claim a technical win here. But this is not why I said what I said. As I've said, many times now, almost any topic is "debatable." Take your pick. I just don't find this particular topic very 'debatable.' When I say, "the scholarly conclusion is", this is essentially the same response I would place forth to a 'flat earther', or an evolution denier, or someone who practices "Sola scriptura", etc... The list goes on and on. I'll await your separate response to address the (timeline) discrepancy in your position/argument.

I've addressed it here. But, if we want to go into that more, I can do that later.

Yes, please do, after you make sense of the timeline as well. Remember, the 'Exodus', as told from the Bible, makes many claims. Some of these physical claims would reasonably leave evidence.

Ultimately it should lead to a source behind what ChatGPT generates.

Right, just like if I "google" in a question, or 'ask Lexa" a question, or 'ask Seri" a question, or any other means to gain an answer... And when these platforms do not produce the pre-determined response(s) we desire, some of us spend much extra time finding alternative answers. Which is why you admitted (paraphrased, as it was many responses ago and I'm not going to try and find it again) - that it took you a long time to research this topic.

Nowadays, we can be fact-checked on the fly. Technology has come a long way. I can make a casual statement to a friend, and he can 'google check' me, or 'ask Seri' me, etc....

Bottom line... There are reason(s) why your position here is fringe. Including believers not taking your position. I've begun to explain why, but just like other positions, which are even much less fringe, I care not to give it a whole lot of legs to be perfectly honest...

It's neither viable or logical or even an alternative. All you are doing is just disagreeing with my position. You're not providing an alternative theory of how to explain the 6 questions. As for the timeline, I'll go more in-depth in a separate post.

Negative, as I'm still awaiting a rational explanation for the giant gap period for this timeline, just for starters.

Of course I'd disagree. But when I summarize my arguments, we'll see who has the most evidence to back their position.

You've already laid out your position in another thread, and some here. No one, believers included, seem to embrace your position. Otherwise, I would have already been approached with your position in the 2-year period in which this topic has sat here. So now what?

More hand-waving. I'd say what is presented in the US Capitol would have more weight than you simply claiming the traditions started by the Exodus is similar to anything related to the Mormons or Scientologists.

Nope. Indoctrination, tradition, credulity, etc, all account for why so many believers believe what they believe, when it comes to their religious positions.

I'd say most believers do not much really study the sum of its parts. Meaning, many Mormons blindly except the claims from the Book of Mormon, such as that some Native Americans are descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel. But I don't spend much time trying to argue with them either, that the native Americans are NOT really the "Lost Tribes of Israel". And yet, ironically enough, here I am, spending much time trying to explain why the 'Hyksos' are likely not the said desired group either.

[Clownboat]

When someone presents actual evidence of the Exodus that has been gathered, the new question becomes "why did you post that?",

I didn't take the over 1 hour and 45 minutes of time it would have taken to view the videos you posted in place of debating. I trust you understand why.

Copy/paste to save time and sanity:
"Why are you posting YouTube videos in place of addressing debate questions?
If there is something of value in these videos, please start with what you find to be the most relevant so we can discuss it.

Until then, do you think we will ever find evidence that millions wandered the Sinai as told in the Bible story? Firepits, graves, pottery... anything?"

proving they don't really care about the answer to the question,

This is false. All it proves is that you are struggling to abide by the rules of this debate forum. Rules you agreed to when you signed up. Why can atheists do it, but you seem to struggle?

When someone has completely unrealistic expectations of what evidence there should actually be for something that happened over ~3500 years ago

Please supply the completely unrealistic expectations you allude to. I assume you have issues with archeological pottery finds. Please explain them.

and believes they are "placing their trust in science" by accepting wildly inaccurate dating methods, and the circular "reasoning" offered up by so-called Egyptologists, there is no amount of evidence that would suffice.

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates.

On the other hand, for those who have actually studied The Law/Commandments, Statutes and Judgments that were given to Moses and the Israelite people ~3500 years ago at Mt. Horeb in Sinai, and can see the pure logic in it, and have spent time in and around human courts to personally witness the irrational judgments, pure hatred for truth and the injustice that is meted out on a daily basis, it should be self-evident that every single curse/punishment that is prophesied to happen to those who reject The Law our Creator has given us has been fulfilled in exact and minute detail.

Who are you even talking about here and what does this have to do with millions wandering the Sinai or anything we are discussing. You seem lost in your emotions.

Further yet, there are prophecies beginning in Genesis, and continuing through Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy,

No, there really doesn't seem to be. The faithful, with skin in the game, like yourself are the only ones that believe such a thing. Humans just cannot prophecy the future, sorry.

There are at least 95 irrefutable scriptural "marks" of the True People Israel today, i.e. the descendants of those who wandered through the wilderness of sin for 40 years, recorded at the following link for everyone's benefit:-

Neato! Now is there any evidence in the Sinai to corroborate such a thing. If not, do you think we will ever find any?

How could this information have been "encoded" into the Biblical accounts leading up to, including and following the Exodus, describing people that would live over 3000 years later, unless the entire account is accurate?

You failed to actually list any information. Please do so for us to examine. If it's an hour and 45 minute video, at least direct us to what you are referring to. If it's a link to pages of information, please copy/paste the said information and then provide the link so we can see the source.

This is the insurmountable difficulty, on top of the available archaeological evidence that has been gathered, that faces all those who doubt the Exodus actually occurred.

Am I wrong to doubt the exodus story as told in the Bible? Perhaps there is evidence that suggests that millions wandered the Sinai for decades? I would like to examine it and I don't require the exodus story to be false for any reason by the way. Currently I just doubt it happened as told. You fail to acknowledge this and then get tied up in emotional responses instead of debate.

[A Freeman]

Am I wrong to doubt the exodus story as told in the Bible?

Yes.

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com ... ny-decades

After 30 years nothing would remain. The bones would be completely worn away. This article has an in-depth analysis:

J Forensic Sci 1989 May;34(3):607-16.
Decay Rates of Human Remains in an Arid Environment

It indicates that an exposed corpse would be mostly worn down to bone fragments with in 3 years:



As the figure indicates, after 3 years complete skeletal decomposition has already begun. After 30 years there would be nothing left.

-------

Reasonable question: Is it reasonable to assume that we would find skeletal remains after 3000 years, when forensic scientist estimate there would be nothing left of a skeleton in that type of environment after 30 years?

[A Freeman]

Excerpt below from:

https://bestoutdoorfirepits.com/how-lon ... -pit-last/

A fire pit’s longevity depends largely on its material. Some are metal, others are stone, and some are even built into the ground or the deck. While the key to a long lasting fire pit is how well you take care of it, some materials are better than others. I’ve researched and built this handy table to help you determine how long fire pits last.

Material / Longevity

Aluminum / 5-10 years
Brick / 10-50+ years
Concrete/Cinder Block / 5-15 years
Galvanized Steel / 10-25 years
Propane / Gas / 7-10 years (until components break)
Stone DIY / 50-200+ years
Wrought Iron / 30-70 years

Reasonable question #1: If fire-pits constructed of these materials -- many of which would not have been available to the ancient Israelites (nor reasonable to expect them to be carried from one campsite to the next) have average lifespans as described in the above table -- is it reasonable to expect to find the remains of fire-pits over 3000 years later in an environment that sand blasts everything on a regular, if not daily basis?

Reasonable question #2: is firewood found in abundant supply in a desert wilderness?

Exodus 16:13-16
16:13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.
16:14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness [there lay] a small round thing, [as] small as the hoar frost on the ground.
16:15 And when the children of Israel saw [it], they said one to another, It [is] manna: for they knew not what it [was]. And Moses said unto them, This [is] the bread which the "I AM" hath given you to eat.
16:16 This [is] the thing which the "I AM" hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, [according to] the number of your persons; take ye every man for [them] which [are] in his tents.

[A Freeman]

Exodus 16:16-31
16:16 This [is] the thing which the "I AM" hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, [according to] the number of your persons; take ye every man for [them] which [are] in his tents.
16:17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
16:18 And when they did measure [it] with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth (angry) with them.
16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
16:22 And it came to pass, [that] on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one [man]: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the "I AM" hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the Holy Sabbath unto the "I AM": bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a Sabbath unto the "I AM": to day ye shall not find it in the field.
16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the Sabbath, in it there shall be none.
16:27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
16:28 And the "I AM" said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep My Commandments and My Laws?
16:29 See, for that the "I AM" hath given you the Sabbath, therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
16:31 And the "House of Israel" called the name thereof Manna: and it [was] like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it [was] like wafers [made] with honey.

Question #1-2: Is it reasonable to expect that a people who were being taught NOT to be wasteful -- and to gather only their assigned portions, and a double-portion on the day of preparation so they would have a portion on the Sabbath without having to gather it -- would be leaving pottery behind everywhere they went? Pottery that they would need again the next day, and again the day after that?

Question #3: Is it reasonable to assume there were stores along the way in the wilderness, to buy additional supplies, e.g. pottery, firewood and fire-pit materials (rocks or stones if nothing else)?

[A Freeman]

Does it seem particularly unreasonable, given the fact that it is highly unlikely anything could survive in a desert wilderness for over 3000 years, to ask for graves, skeletal remains, fire-pits, pottery etc.?

Or is this merely the unreasonable stipulations placed upon evidence of the Exodus, by unreasonable people, so they can continue to ignore reason, common-sense and what has been found in support of the historical record of this journey found in the Books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy?

And further, if someone cannot be bothered to look at and study the actual evidence presented, instead throwing a tantrum that they weren't spoon-fed the information provided in videos and links that they could examine at their leisure, are they even capable of reasonable, rational thought?

[Clownboat]

Am I wrong to doubt the exodus story as told in the Bible?

Yes.

Your reasoning is not compelling and is against the rules of this forum.
You will know them by their fruit.

[Clownboat]

Excerpt below from:

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com ... ny-decades

After 30 years nothing would remain. The bones would be completely worn away. This article has an in-depth analysis:

J Forensic Sci 1989 May;34(3):607-16.
Decay Rates of Human Remains in an Arid Environment

It indicates that an exposed corpse would be mostly worn down to bone fragments with in 3 years:



As the figure indicates, after 3 years complete skeletal decomposition has already begun. After 30 years there would be nothing left.

-------

Reasonable question: Is it reasonable to assume that we would find skeletal remains after 3000 years, when forensic scientist estimate there would be nothing left of a skeleton in that type of environment after 30 years?

And yet we find what you claim we won't!

A scientific expedition has found a 33,000-year-old skeleton of an Egyptian, the oldest human relic ever found in this country. The Government-owned daily Al Ahram said that the bones were found in the Firan valley in the Sinai desert.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/21/worl ... of%20years.

Pottery remains, including various types of vessels and workshops, have been found in the Sinai Peninsula, indicating its presence throughout different periods. These remains provide insights into ancient Egyptian settlements, military sites, and pottery production during the New Kingdom and Roman periods.

Remains of workshops from about the same time as those at Amarna have been found at Harube in north Sinai.

I trust you have corrected your thinking.
So with your corrected thinking, do you think we will ever find evidence for millions wandering the Sinai as told in the Bible?

[Clownboat]

Reasonable question #1: If fire-pits constructed of these materials -- many of which would not have been available to the ancient Israelites (nor reasonable to expect them to be carried from one campsite to the next) have average lifespans as described in the above table -- is it reasonable to expect to find the remains of fire-pits over 3000 years later in an environment that sand blasts everything on a regular, if not daily basis?

Yes, it is reasonable that fire pits could be found.
The first fire pit dates all the way back to the middle Paleolithic period, occurring around 200,000-400,000 years ago. Archeologists found evidence from sites in Klasies River in South Africa and Israel of a fire pit made from stones.
https://www.firepitart.com/blog/the-fas ... m%20stones.

Do you think we will ever find such in the Sinai, assuming the exodus story from the Bible took place as told?

Reasonable question #2: is firewood found in abundant supply in a desert wilderness?

Yes.
As many of the people in North Sinai are either nomadic or homeless, burning firewood is key to staying warm instead of using modern heaters.
https://www.egyptindependent.com/sinai- ... e_vignette