Judge not?

[Zzyzx]

WHY does the bible judge people while saying 'judge not'?

WHY do Christians judge people while claiming to follow the bible that clearly says 'judge not'?

[bjs1]

A book can’t judge a person.

I would like to test this claim.
According to the collection of books we call the Bible, what happens to an atheist when they die?

Is there any answer to this question which would mean that a book is able to form an opinion or evaluation of someone?

Yes. Many Christians believe the words in the Bible come directly from God through the Holy Spirit. They dedicate their lives to this book and allow it to inform their thinking.

You already know this though, which is why you avoided answer the question as to where an atheist goes when they die, according to the book we call the Bible which commands the beliefs of Christians that is.

To be clear, is your argument that God tells people not to judge others, and then God judges people?

The book does have the power to control some humans to judge those around them. Absent the book, there would be no judgement.

This claim seems suspect. Wouldn’t you agree that many atheists, absent any book, are extremely judgmental?

I recognize that people sometimes change the definition of “judge” to get the results they want. If we don’t do that, if we stick with the actual meaning of the words, how exactly could a book judge someone?

As explained, by commanding the actions of those who worship the said book. (Books if we include other holy books).

Worship
2: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Ok, though usually when we talk about religious faith people use first definition that Webster’s provided. That is:
1 : to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

judge
noun
: one who makes judgments: such as
a
: a public official authorized to decide questions brought before a court
also : an officer in a government agency with the authority to hold hearings about and recommend resolutions for disputes concerning the agency's actions
b
: one appointed to decide in a contest or competition : umpire
c
: one who gives an authoritative opinion
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judge

This seems to be twisting the language a bit. Usually when people talk about judging someone, they mean something closer to the definition provided in post 3. I have never heard any Christian say that it is against the teachings of Jesus to be an umpire. Are you saying that’s what you believe Jesus was trying to say? Do think that belief is coming among Christians?

Christians worship a book that provides them with authoritative opinions.

I know of no version of Christianity that worships a book, at least not in the way that people normally use the word worship in the context of religion.

[Clownboat]

To be clear, is your argument that God tells people not to judge others, and then God judges people?

No, I have no reason to assume any Gods exist and I already explained how the Bible judges.

This claim seems suspect. Wouldn’t you agree that many atheists, absent any book, are extremely judgmental?

You didn't address what I said, so I'll copy/paste it to save time:
"The book does have the power to control some humans to judge those around them. Absent the book, there would be no judgement." (Atheists are irrelevant to this claim about the Bible).
To your question, yes, an atheist can be judgmental.

Ok, though usually when we talk about religious faith people use first definition that Webster’s provided. That is:
1 : to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

How rude! I supply a valid definition for how I am using the word and you dispute my clarity. I am using the word 'worship' in the way I have described and my use is valid.

Usually when people talk about judging someone, they mean something closer to the definition provided in post 3. I have never heard any Christian say that it is against the teachings of Jesus to be an umpire. Are you saying that’s what you believe Jesus was trying to say? Do think that belief is coming among Christians?

Again, this is rude. I provided the entire definition and bolded the how I was using the word. This was done to be curious and to provide clarity.
Are you trying to drag me down to your level so you can beat me with experience? I bolded it for you and you want ask me if there are teachings against being an umpire?
Copy/paste: one who gives an authoritative opinion <---- This was my intended use of the word, made obvious by it being in bold for your benefit in a failed attempt to try to increase your chance of comprehension.

Christians worship a book that provides them with authoritative opinions.

Christians regard the Bible with great respect, honor and devotion (Worship 2: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion) and it provides them with authoritative opinions (judge c
: one who gives an authoritative opinion)

I know of no version of Christianity that worships a book, at least not in the way that people normally use the word worship in the context of religion.

Then stop being dishonest with the supplied meaning of words. This will help with your ignorance.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #18]
I apologize if I gave offense. That was not my intent.

Thanks, but you continue to (avoid or miss) my point here. I'm not offended in the slightest BTW. My point here is, did you pass "judgement" because:

I'm glad you put judgment in quotations (implying it is not actually judgment), because I did not see where bjs judged. Unless you consider them calling your post 'silly games' to be judgment? But then you also called his post to be 'shenanigans', did you not?


But perhaps I missed something. Can you explain where you think bjs passed judgment?

[POI]

Can you explain where you think bjs passed judgment?

Because calling something, or making as assessment about something, 'silly' or filled with 'shenanigans', are indeed both opinion(s) in which do require the act of judging something. However, I'm not a hypocrite here in this case for doing so, as I can care less as to what the expressed commands suggest from Jesus, unless they already align with my own moral sensibilities. The Bible tells followers to 'judge not', and yet, Jesus followers have no problem passing judgement ad nauseum. And sure, though bjs's 'judgement' was quite minor or benign here, as it surely did not offend or cause any adverse states of well-being (for me), it is still technically a judgement. Which is a no-no, as commanded from Jesus.

You see tam, my own 'moral' values are not "forced" to be in alignment with Jesus's opinion(s). By "forced" here I mean, if they don't align, then they are deemed 'missing the mark' by Jesus's standard(s). Bjs's, or any follower's "moral's", are forced to align with Jesus - (whether they actually agree or not). Hence, I am asking him if he:

a) admits he cannot follow this command here because he simply cannot help it? (or)
b) deliberately picks and chooses which of Jesus's 'moral' commands to follow?

Option c) would have involved (ignorance to this particular law/command), but we can already rule this option out, as he is trying to "school" the OP-er and got caught being disingenuous.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Can you explain where you think bjs passed judgment?

Because calling something, or making as assessment about something, 'silly' or filled with 'shenanigans', are indeed both opinion(s) in which do require the act of judging something.

Making an assessment is not the same as judging someone. I think you know that or you would not have felt the need to put the word in quotations: "judging."

Christ did not tell us that we cannot make an assessment about something. The opposite in fact. How can we 'test those who claim to be apostles but who are not' if we are not permitted to make assessments (Rev 2:2)?

Judgment is more about passing judgment, condemning. Saying 'you are a liar' is not a judgment against the person (especially not if that person is in fact a liar). Judging is following that statement up with a condemnation 'you deserve to be/will be struck down by God' - or by "casting a stone."

None of us should do such a thing, because we all lie or have lied at some point (even if in ignorance.) Judging someone else for lying would mean bringing judgment upon oneself.

"Judge not lest ye be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will also be judged."

For example:

You recall the woman who as about to be stone for adultery (John 8)? Christ said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." The only person there who could have picked up a stone and cast it at that woman was Christ, Himself (the only one without sin.) Yet instead of judging her (for the sin that she committed), He forgave her.

However, I'm not a hypocrite here in this case for doing so, as I can care less as to what the expressed commands suggest from Jesus, unless they already align with my own moral sensibilities.

Do you think it is wrong to "judge" (in the way you are using the word)?

If yes, then your words were indeed hypocritical. Because you are holding bjs to a standard that you can't and don't live up to, yourself.

If you don't think it's wrong to "judge" (in the way you are using the word), then hassling bjs just comes off as petty.

The Bible tells followers to 'judge not', and yet, Jesus followers have no problem passing judgement ad nauseum. And sure, though bjs's 'judgement' was quite minor or benign here, as it surely did not offend or cause any adverse states of well-being (for me), it is still technically a judgement. Which is a no-no, as commanded from Jesus.

See above.

You see tam, my own 'moral' values are not forced to be in alignment with Jesus's opinion(s). Bjs's, or any follower's "moral's", are forced to align with Jesus - (whether they actually agree or not). Hence, I am asking him if he:

There is no 'hence'. You are applying a personal definition of "judging" (one that even you must know is incorrect since you put the word in quotations.) Bjs is not required to choose either of your false conclusions.

[POI]

Making an assessment is not the same as judging someone. I think you know that or you would not have felt the need to put the word in quotations: "judging."

I placed the word in quotes because it is both a subjective (judgment/assessment/ruling) about one's actions as well as nuanced in that it's rather playful/trivial and not meant to do mallicious harm. He deems my action(s) here "silly", as I deem his actions here 'filled with shenanigans'. The English language can be quite tricky, which is why context is often key. I trust you understand this as well as anyone. Case/point, Bjs1 was harping upon the verbiage of what Zzyzx wrote in the OP, while likely knowing full well what he is actually examining. It's disingenuous. And as to your statement above about assessment vs. judgement, it depends. I'll explain below.

Christ did not tell us that we cannot make an assessment about something.

Calling something "silly" is considered a judgment here. So, trying to make a case about "assessment's" is irrelevant. Why? In psychology and conflict resolution, (like Nonviolent Communication), a judgment is an evaluation based on personal values, feelings, or standards rather than objective reality.

Subjective: "Silly" does not describe a measurable fact; it reflects the speaker's personal reaction or opinion.

Labeling: It places a label on a behavior, idea, or object, which often implies disapproval or dismissal.

You recall the woman who as about to be stone for adultery (John 8)? Christ said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Thanks for proving the point. Countless Christians still pass personal judgement today. That's the point. Again, are they:

a) unable to control themselves?
b) picky and choosy about Jesus's rulset?
c) ignorant to Jesus's law here?

Do you think it is wrong to "judge" (in the way you are using the word)?

The point here is that <my> obligation is not to (exclude/avoid) personal judgement. His, however, is.

[tam]

Peace again,

Making an assessment is not the same as judging someone. I think you know that or you would not have felt the need to put the word in quotations: "judging."

I placed the word in quotes because it is both a subjective (judgment/assessment/ruling) about one's actions as well as nuanced in that it's rather playful/trivial and not meant to do mallicious harm. He deems my action(s) here "silly", as I deem his actions here 'filled with shenanigans'. The English language can be quite tricky, which is why context is often key. I trust you understand this as well as anyone.

Are you saying that you believe making an assessment is the same as judging someone?

Christ did not tell us that we cannot make an assessment about something.

Calling something "silly" is considered a judgment here.

News to me.

So, trying to make a case about "assessment's" is irrelevant. Why? In psychology and conflict resolution, (like Nonviolent Communication), a judgment is an evaluation based on personal values, feelings, or standards rather than objective reality.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is exactly why bjs asked Zzyzx to define what he meant by judging. I would have done it myself, but bjs beat me to it. Just to be able to avoid a pointless argument over the definition of judging.

Subjective: "Silly" does not describe a measurable fact; it reflects the speaker's personal reaction or opinion.

So?

That doesn't make it judging.

Labeling: It places a label on a behavior, idea, or object, which often implies disapproval or dismissal.

Are you saying Christ taught his disciples that they are not permitted to disapprove of behaviors, ideas or objects?

You recall the woman who as about to be stone for adultery (John 8)? Christ said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Thanks for proving the point. Countless Christians still pass personal judgement today. That's the point.

John 8 does not prove any point other than the point that judging (the kind that we are not to do, condemning, threatening others as if God has judged them) is not the same as evaluation and assessment.

Do you think it is wrong to "judge" (in the way you are using the word)?

The point here is that <my> obligation is not to (exclude/avoid) personal judgement. His, however, is.

You didn't answer my question.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #18]

You are now barking upon a false analogy. A) Jesus appointed himself as judge.

He did not. The quotes you supplied earlier in the thread prove that He did not.

His Father gave Him authority to judge.

That does not mean He used the authority given Him to judge people.

As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


Even in the example where a woman had been caught in adultery, He did not judge her, but instead showed mercy and forgave her.


Peace again.

[POI]

That doesn't make it judging.

"Silly" is an adjective. Placing an adjective, as a descriptor of someone's actions, is generally considered a judgment -- (specifically an evaluation) rather than a pure assessment, though the exact distinction depends on the specific adjective used and the context.

Here is how the two terms break down in linguistics and psychology:

The Core Difference(s)

Judgment (Evaluation): This happens when the adjective injects a subjective value, moral stance, or emotional bias. It labels the person's character through their action.

Assessment (Observation): This happens when the adjective describes measurable, objective, or criteria-based facts without passing moral or emotional sentence.

****************

Unless you can demonstrate how one can objectively measure the "sillyness-factor" of something, Bjs1 made a personal subjective judgement of an action.

Are you saying Christ taught his disciples that they are not permitted to disapprove of behaviors, ideas or objects?

No.

John 8 does not prove any point other than the point that judging (the kind that we are not to do, condemning, threatening others as if God has judged them) is not the same as evaluation and assessment.

Calling someone's actions (fill-in the-adjective) is a personal subjective judgement.

You didn't answer my question.

Not when the shoe fits. But I doubt Jesus would approve of bjs1 doing so, in placing a subjective-personal-labelled-judgement on an observed action.

[POI]

He did not. The quotes you supplied earlier in the thread prove that He did not.

His Father gave Him authority to judge.

YWHW and Jesus are two (different/distinct/separate) entities? If so, maybe a new thread needs to be started?