Biblical Law?

[POI]

According to the Bible, many acts/actions are against "the law". All such acts/actions would also be deemed 'sin', and/or, 'missing the mark'. Further, some of these deemed broken laws are also punishable by death in various ways.

God has the opportunity to list (any/all) acts/actions in which he deems "unlawful" and/or "sinful". And yet, the topic of (owning other humans as property for life, for which can be beaten with impunity for life), somehow did NOT make it to the large list of God's "no-no's"? A matter-of-fact, it is quite the opposite; in that the Bible instead condones owning humans as property - for which can be beaten just short of death, for their lifetime.

For debate:

1) If God has the power to abolish (any/all) acts/actions in which he does not like, (while also knowing countless people will just violate many of them anyways), why then exclude the topic of 'chattel slavery' from the list of no-no's and instead condone it?

2) Why worship a God which disagrees with your moral compass? Unless you believe it IS moral to own other humans as permanent property as a form of "chattel slaves"?

*****************

P.S. -- And for the record, some may try to wiggle out of this topic by sighting the 'golden rule' - as mentioned in Leviticus 19:18 and also in the "NT". However, this argument fails because then God would not need to bother with virtually any listed "no-no's". And yet, bothers to list MANY "no-no's" anyways. And further, instead goes out of his way to condone chattel slavery. Which, at best for the believer, is a contradiction to the listed 'golden rule.' But we all know that the rules aren't the same for all, when it comes to the ('Jewish' vs 'non-Jewish') men, women, and children alike...

[POI]

I asked the limits for the case where there is no slave involved.

Ex. 21:12 states: "Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death". Which means if it was the strike which is the cause of the recipient's death, they are punished, period. This is not the case for a slave master in which strikes their slave in the exact same manner. Ex. 21:21 states: "if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property."

Third request.. Please select one of the two:

In this particular case of the master striking the slave in the head, since god instructed that the slave master is absolved from any punishment after this time, then god is either:

a) not aware of how ICP works? (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property?

I select: c) God knows better than you.

LOL! When you see a verse which looks to present a moral command in which you do not like, simply shrug your shoulders and state (paraphrased) - "it is above our understanding", as you are under the assumption that the god you worship MUST be all good.

You see 1213, this is why some people have and do stop exchanging with you, as the flagrant handwaving starts to become laborious.

[1213]

I asked the limits for the case where there is no slave involved.

Ex. 21:12 states: "Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death". Which means if it was the strike which is the cause of the recipient's death, they are punished, period....

So, do I understand correctly, you think, if non slave was hit and died after 10 years, the hitter was guilty? Or is there some time limit?

LOL! When you see a verse which looks to present a moral command in which you do not like, simply shrug your shoulders and state (paraphrased) - "it is above our understanding", as you are under the assumption that the god you worship MUST be all good.

You see 1213, this is why some people have and do stop exchanging with you, as the flagrant handwaving starts to become laborious.

It must be annoying, when people don't accept your arbitrarily limited options.

[POI]

So, do I understand correctly, you think, if non slave was hit and died after 10 years, the hitter was guilty? Or is there some time limit?

At this point, you are just being silly, because you know you are caught (with no way out). As I stated many responses ago, the rules differ between striking a <free person> verses striking a <slave>.

Again, take the example of ICP (3-5 days). In the free world, person A strikes person B in the head and person B goes to the hospital. The event is witnessed and person A is arrested for assault/battery. A few days later, person B dies from complication(s), due to ICP. If the strike caused the person B's death, then person A's charges are increased to murder and person A is punished. On the contrary, under the law(s) of slavery, not only would person A not have been charged with assault/battery, but person A would also not be charged for murder.

You can keep trying to play these 'games', regarding time limits, but we all see through what you are doing. If the non-slave recipient of the strike/blow results in their death, then the aggressor is punished under Ex. 21:12. If a master strikes their slave and the slave makes it passed the 48-hour mark, no punishment, even if the slave died 3 days later, from complication(s) related to ICP.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

You say that the Bible "condones" slavery, @POI, but it only allows it to exist. Then, the principles of the Bible, for example, that humans are created in God's image, God uses in his people so that eventually people legislate against slavery. God only permits evil, he does not "condone" it. The result he causes in Christians' lives is spiritual growth coming out of the evil events in their lives that he permits to happen.

[POI]

I'm sorry Bruce, but your entire response here is nothing more than 'cope.'

You say that the Bible "condones" slavery, @POI, but it only allows it to exist.

Instead of the Bible condemning slavery, it instead provides specific instructions on how one may do so. All the Bible would have needed to do is to inspire folks to write a 'one-liner', which states (paraphrased) - "thou shall not own other humans as lifetime property." And viola, skeptics could not perpetually bring up this glaring fact, in that the Bible god is a-okay with not only slavery, but chattel slavery to boot, as it specifies in Leviticus 25:44-46 and Exodus 21:4-7.

Then, the principles of the Bible, for example, that humans are created in God's image, God uses in his people so that eventually people legislate against slavery.

This is again nothing but both 'cope' and wishful thinking Bruce. When Jesus later comes along, he does not express his disdain for slavery. Even though he does so for topics as seemingly as arbitrary as vegetation, like with the fig tree, as he 'curses' it -- (according to Mark and Matthew). Jesus had ample opportunity to express condemnation for slavery. Jesus would also know that such acts of slavery would reek havoc upon folks for millennia, and he opted NOT to do so. This means he must not hate it. Further, the NT further condones the topic of slavery.

God only permits evil, he does not "condone" it.

God never expresses such acts of slavery as being evil. He instead only gives instruction on how to perform it, and also how not to get punished for doing so.

The result he causes in Christians' lives is spiritual growth coming out of the evil events in their lives that he permits to happen.

Which doesn't include slavery.

********************

Your entire argument has been addressed prior. We know when god does not like a topic but allows for it anyways. Case/point, divorce. He gives instruction(s) for legal divorce while also expressing that he does not like divorce. Well, for slavery, which is a 'bigger' topic, he fails to do so. He skips the former - (in expressing his dislike), but performs the later- (in expressing how to do it).

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #45]

You seem to condemn God for what he DOES NOT do, @POI. I learned a long time ago that I can't interpret Scripture by what it DOES NOT say, because that silence means nothing. The point I was making is that God used the principles of his Word to inspire Christians many years later to do away with slavery.

However, you neglect to mention that during the year of jubilee, Israelite slaves were set free.

Lev 25:39  “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 
Lev 25:40  he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 
Lev 25:41  Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 
Lev 25:42  For they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 

[1213]

So, do I understand correctly, you think, if non slave was hit and died after 10 years, the hitter was guilty? Or is there some time limit?

At this point, you are just being silly, because you know you are caught (with no way out). As I stated many responses ago, the rules differ between striking a <free person> verses striking a <slave>.

Again, take the example of ICP (3-5 days)....

Again, is that said in the Bible? No. Bible doesn't say, "if you hit a free person and he died after 3-5 days, you deserve death".

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #45]

You seem to condemn God for what he DOES NOT do

Here is what the Bible god DOES:

Ex. 21:6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life. --> (This means the male slave, along with the woman and children, is/are slave(s) for life, because the Bible god says so).

Ex.21:7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. --> (This means that the daughter is a slave for life, because the Bible god says so).

Lev. 25:44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness. --> (This means that the Bible god is fine and dandy with lifetime chattel slavery. This also means that the slave master is not to treat fellow Israelites as harshly).

I learned a long time ago that I can't interpret Scripture by what it DOES NOT say

I just informed you about what it does say though.

The point I was making is that God used the principles of his Word to inspire Christians many years later to do away with slavery.

If that were actually true, you would have listed the Bible verse(s) instructing its readers to do so. The Bible god did no such thing.

you neglect to mention that during the year of jubilee, Israelite slaves were set free.
Lev 25:39  “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 

It's quite ironic that I should have to point out context to a Christian. This passage expresses who is not to be made a slave.

Lev 25:40  he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 
Lev 25:41  Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 
Lev 25:42  For they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 

Speaking of context, when you use a better interpretation, see what these verses actually say:

(NRSV)-> 39 If any who are dependent on you become so impoverished that they sell themselves to you, you shall not make them serve as slaves. 40 They shall remain with you as hired or bound labourers. They shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then they and their children with them shall be free from your authority; they shall go back to their own family and return to their ancestral property. 42 For they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves are sold. -> (You see how these passages make a clear distinction between hired help vs. slaves?)

[POI]

[Replying to 1213 in post #47]

No one is buying what you are "selling" 1213. If you wish to completely go down with the ship, then so-be-it... Under Biblical law, if person A strikes free person B on the head, and free person B goes to the hospital, and free person B dies 4 days later, and the cause of death (from the coroner's case) deems the death related to 'blunt force trauma', is person A to be punished? The answer is (yes). The answer, however, under Biblical law would be (no) if person B was person A's slave.

Otherwise, it would be yet another good reason not to follow the laws of the Bible.... Meaning, if anyone (at all) is purposefully struck on the head by another, (and dies from the strike a few days later), the striker could not be punished.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #48]

@POI, Such "hired workers" who have to serve their master until jubilee are still, therefore, really the same as slaves because they have to work for them during that time. There is very little difference. The only difference is that they are "brothers," not Israelites.

By the way, what is the difference between being owned and not owned, if we have to work for someone? The Bible shows masters how they must treat their slaves lovingly. That is the most important detail. Then, later, Christians set slaves free, a fact that demonstrates that God works his Word about human value out in history.