Women and Authority

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PROSECUTOR
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Women and Authority

Post #1

Post by PROSECUTOR »

As a new member I would like to participate in a discussion of whether the Bible authorizes women to be in positions of authority over men in any area of life. It is my strong conviction that women are forbidden to rule over men in the home, in religion, in the work place, in government,
in social settings or any area of life. This is based of God's creation and thus is not governed by culture or present day opinions. What I mean by this is that no matter where this discussion leads, it will always be forced to return to creation. We cannot ignore the facts: (1) Man was created before the woman. (2) Woman was created from man. (3) Man was not made for woman but the woman for the man. (4) Man is to rule over the woman not the other way around. Four rules that must be followed for this discussion to have any merit are these: (1) We must agree on a common standard. I believe that standard to be the Bible. (2) We must agree on basic rules of interpretation the chief one being common sense. (3) We must allow words to have their normal meanings unless the context demands different. (4) We must abide by rules of grammer, in this discussion, those rules that govern our English language, unless the context demands differently.
Prosecutor :-k

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Icarus
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Post #2

Post by Icarus »

Prosecutor,
I'll take the debate. Post your references not just assumed text. And I'll take the other side of this.

If you are so set in your view, why might I ask do you wish to be challenged?
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias

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Piper Plexed
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Post #3

Post by Piper Plexed »

Eve as the first woman created from man is not necessarily the whole story
 (d) Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.

Adam complained to God: 'I have been deserted by my helpmeet' God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore lilim at the rate of more than one hundred a day. 'Return to Adam without delay,' the angels said, `or we will drown you!' Lilith asked: `How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?? 'It will be death to refuse!' they answered. `How can I die,' Lilith asked again, `when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it.' To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; 5 and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own.
Source
It would seem to me that mans inability to accept an equal relationship with his mate to be the origins of Eve. I tend to see the Biblical hierarchical structure of the male female relationship more of a "necessary evil" not necessarily a reflection of any intrinsic superiority of males as a gender. The fact that men today still adamantly accept this as fact only continues to prove that the Male ego still requires this hierarchical structure to maintain a balance in the home which lends to prorogation. I think it is sad that we as a species have not evolved past this, though it would appear to me that God understood his children quite well when he created Eve.
*"I think, therefore I am" (Cogito, ergo sum)-Descartes
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PROSECUTOR
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Women and Authority

Post #4

Post by PROSECUTOR »

Icarus wrote:Prosecutor,
I'll take the debate. Post your references not just assumed text. And I'll take the other side of this.

If you are so set in your view, why might I ask do you wish to be challenged?
TO ICARUS:

Thank you for taking the time to reply. In answer to your question, to be challenged can show both the strength and weakness of a position. In this case we don't hear a great deal about the authority of women in the secular world but mostly in the home and in religion. It is my belief that most of the debate about whether a woman can be a preaher or not or whether she is equal to her husband (or the man) in the area of authority in the home is due to her role in the secular realm. In other words a woman might ask, "How is it that I can be President of the United States and yet cannot preach a sermon in the church were I am a member?" Myquestion is, "Who gives her the authority to be President?" You said you would take the other position. While I am happy to set forth the proofs as to why women cannot be in positions of authority over men in any area, the burden of proof actually belongs to those who say she can.
When one says a woman can be President of our country, my response is
"By what authority"? As a matter of fact, this is my main argument. THERE IS NO BIBLE AUTHORITY FOR A WOMAN TO BE IN POSITIONS TO RULE OVER MAN IN ANY AREA OF LIFE. If such exist where is it? What Bible passage or passages, what Bible example or examples, what Bible implication is there that shows she can rule over man? My original points need to be answered. The order of creation (Genesis 2:7; I Timothy 2:13),the purpose of creation (Genesis 2:18-25; I Corinthians 11:9), the place in creation (Genesis 3:16; I Corinthians 11:3,7). Her subordinate role to the man is tied to creation itself. Neither Jesus nor His apostles at any time ammended these truths. If this does not cover what it is you wish to discuss on this issue let me know the specific area you wish to cover. :-k

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Piper Plexed
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Post #5

Post by Piper Plexed »

TO PROSECUTOR

Gee I think I took the time to respond as well and am curious as to why it appears invisible to you, or could it be that I specified my gender? Well, I referenced ancient hebrew text found in the
The Alphabet of Ben Sira is the earliest form we know of the Lilith legend familiar to most people (that is, to most people who are familiar with Lilith at all). It is here that we find Lilith as Adam's first wife. Scholars tend to date the Alphabet between the 8th and 10th centuries, CE. Whether the story itself is older, or, if so, how much older is not possible to say. Amulets like the one described in the first paragraph are, of course, much older. The author of the Zohar, R. Moses de Leon, was aware of the Alphabet's version of Lilith, at least according to Gershom Scholem (Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism, p. 174), but he also knows other, probably older, Lilith traditions which do not mesh well with this one. No attempt is made, apparently, to harmonize them. For one of these other traditions, and comments on whether the author was familiar with the Alphabet, see Treatise on the Left Emanation. The idea of Eve having a predecessor is also not new to Ben Sira, and can be found in Genesis Rabbah . But those traditions make no mention of Lilith, and, in fact, do not mesh well with Ben Sira's version of the story.
Source and a brief description of the "Story of Lilith"
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Icarus
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Post #6

Post by Icarus »

Piper,
I don't think he overlooked you purposefully.

...the burden of proof actually belongs to those who say she can.
Ahh, good point. I have been reminded of debating. will do.

There is large separation between Dominion and Domination. In Genesis 3:16 God gives Adam Dominion over Eve, not domination. Otherwise concubines, female slaves, polygamy, physical abuse, et al would be in the very least acceptable. See Hagar, Dinah, Tamar, Lot's and Jephthah's daughters - examples of man's disregard for women. God giving dominion to Adam was not to say that a woman CANNOT rule [have dominion] over a man but that because of Eve's sin the general principle from here on out will be that women will "answer" to her husband, but weightier still is that the man is responsible for her because she now falls under his authority. Not authority as in "you do what I tell you..." but that the a man will answer for whatever happens under his dominion.

Also, separation of duties as indicated in the Bible in many places over various subjects does not mean that one position is better than the other. If God designed women not to have that capacity to lead (people, men, women) he forgot to fix the wiring after the Genesis judgment. Women can manage business's, think strategically, debate, analyze, and so on with all those "ruling" or leadership abilities.

There is also no connection between First and Superior. 1 Timothy 2:13 is stating the obvious. Not a power.

But here is my main argument:
Colossians 1:16 says "For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him." So He who places the rulers and the authorities as HE sees fit, then we must accept any and ALL rulers and authorities not only including women in authority but to your question of "by what authority?".

Here is my secondary argument. In regards to being able to be preachers and leaders:
Miriam, (Exodus 15:20) and Huldah (2 Kings 22:14, 2 Chronicles 34:22) both described as described as "the prophetess" revealed the will of God to the people, ie: preachering. As well as Huldah's story reveals that men priests sought HER out for God's guidance. Deborah was both a Prophet AND a Judge in Israel AS WELL AS lead Barak into battle against the Canaanites.
While I am happy to set forth the proofs as to why women cannot be in positions of authority over men in any area,...
Was not Jesus himself under a woman's authority from birth?? Did Mary not tell him to sweep the floor and feed the livestock? So I've already given exceptions to your rule of "any area". You could claim something like "well that's different, that's child rearing, its her job..." but was Jesus not 'of age' and had disciples when Mary ordered him to make wine at the wedding? Do you not submit to your mothers authority even though married?

Was not Jesus' overall statements to men about women basically summing up that men are to see women as equals not second class. Which is also partly why the Status Quo wanted him killed. Because he was removing the "ruling" class mentality of man. A great example of that is Martha and Mary, Jesus himself says that Mary chose the better thing (learning) which is traditionally supposed to be a male only thing. While Martha played the good traditionalist. Many times Paul mentions female Deacons and leaders.

Paul writes in Galations 3:27-28 "For as many as were immersed into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew nor Greek, there is no bondman nor freeman, there is no male and female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". If there is no male or female in the Christian Faith AND God sets up rulers and authorities, then there is no Superior Domination Rule of a Man.

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Women in Authority

Post #7

Post by PROSECUTOR »

Piper Plexed:

I did not ignore your comments but responded first to Icarus because (1) he accepted my challenge for this discussion and (2) your references to "the Lilith legend" have no place in this discussion. :confused2: I stated in my original letter that I believe the Bible to be the standard of authority for this discussion. It says nothing of this "legend" therefore it has no merit for this discussion. I appreciate your interest and if you wish to participate please make your case from the Scriptures. :D

Thanks:

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Piper Plexed
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Re: Women in Authority

Post #8

Post by Piper Plexed »

PROSECUTOR wrote:Piper Plexed:

I did not ignore your comments but responded first to Icarus because (1) he accepted my challenge for this discussion and (2) your references to "the Lilith legend" have no place in this discussion. :confused2: I stated in my original letter that I believe the Bible to be the standard of authority for this discussion. It says nothing of this "legend" therefore it has no merit for this discussion. I appreciate your interest and if you wish to participate please make your case from the Scriptures. :D

Thanks:
(1) I believe I also accepted your challenge.
I was responding to..
(1) Man was created before the woman. (2) Woman was created from man. (3) Man was not made for woman but the woman for the man. (4) Man is to rule over the woman not the other way around.
So..(2) The Lilith legend does have a place in this discussion because you wish to discuss the bible which includes the old testament and the old testament is based on Jewish oral and written tradition, the Lilith legend is also a part of Jewish oral and written tradition. :D

If one truly wish's to discuss the roll of women in Christianity then I would think they would rather explore all aspects of the woman's roll, otherwise I would suspect that the objective of this discussion to be more about self affirmation then true discourse. :confused2:
Last edited by Piper Plexed on Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Icarus
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Post #9

Post by Icarus »

I believe Prosecutor is referring to the standard Judeo-Christian Canon.
What I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind. –Ravi Zacharias

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Piper Plexed
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Post #10

Post by Piper Plexed »

Icarus wrote:I believe Prosecutor is referring to the standard Judeo-Christian Canon.
Yes, I guess you are correct, sadly, quite limiting :(

P.S. I very much enjoyed your thoughts on the subject, and I thank you for sharing :D
*"I think, therefore I am" (Cogito, ergo sum)-Descartes
** I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that ...

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