Since I am not an adherant to christianity, I am not a sinner. Christians steadily refer to non-christians as sinners, but we are not - indeed we could not be.
I think it is important to make the distinction, because I for one do not want to be judged by their twisted and impossible system of right and wrong. I think christians would do well to remember that non-christian = non-sinner.
Tired of being considered a sinner.
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Post #161
Every one is a sinner. Read this:
For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 2:11-16
This says that all who sin will perish. It does not matter to God who you are; the wages of sin is death. Look at this carefully:
Whoever has the law (Jews) will be judged by the law.
Whoever ever does not have the law (Gentiles: everybody else) will perish without the law. And it explains why. Even though the Gentiles have not specifically been given the law, they know what is right and what is wrong. They are able to make those judgments without the written law.
The bottom line is that people don't even do what they believe to be right. People will hurt people and be selfish even by their own standards. It says Jesus will, by that standard alone, be able to judge. We are all condemned already by not doing what we believe to be right. The law given to the Jew and to the Christian doesn't cause this; it reveals what is already going on. It does not matter what you call yourself or who you claim to be; you are condemned. The only way out is to allow Jesus's death to count as payment for your sin. He died for everyone. But, if you claim you are not a sinner, you cannot claim before God on judgment day that he paid for your sin. It will be you and your sin standing before God. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation..."
For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 2:11-16
This says that all who sin will perish. It does not matter to God who you are; the wages of sin is death. Look at this carefully:
Whoever has the law (Jews) will be judged by the law.
Whoever ever does not have the law (Gentiles: everybody else) will perish without the law. And it explains why. Even though the Gentiles have not specifically been given the law, they know what is right and what is wrong. They are able to make those judgments without the written law.
The bottom line is that people don't even do what they believe to be right. People will hurt people and be selfish even by their own standards. It says Jesus will, by that standard alone, be able to judge. We are all condemned already by not doing what we believe to be right. The law given to the Jew and to the Christian doesn't cause this; it reveals what is already going on. It does not matter what you call yourself or who you claim to be; you are condemned. The only way out is to allow Jesus's death to count as payment for your sin. He died for everyone. But, if you claim you are not a sinner, you cannot claim before God on judgment day that he paid for your sin. It will be you and your sin standing before God. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation..."
Post #162
I think this is what is called a false trichotomy. What do you mean saying that I am not perfect? How could you know, unless you invented a standard that no-one could reach?MikeH wrote: The only options are:
A.Nobody is perfect
B.Some people are perfect, others are imperfect
C.Everybody is perfect
I honestly think that A is by far the best option.
Some people have every right to claim moral superiority over others. Live with it.
When the church stifles science in favour of 'ID', I think the science teacher who risks his job by openly disagreeing is 'morally superior' to the fluff-heads who support this ridiculous indoctrination device.
Why would you think that everyone is imperfect? Have you any evidence?
Have you some evidence that I am imperfect?
How about Mother Theresa and me? Are we morally equal?
When some fool said that all men are created equal, he wasn't using his senses to check facts.
Post #163
Then you must know of a fourth option of which I am unawareDarren wrote:I think this is what is called a false trichotomy.
Ok, let's assume no standards. You completely make your moral code, are you perfect?What do you mean saying that I am not perfect? How could you know, unless you invented a standard that no-one could reach?
Post #164
I am going to look carefully through your post for evidence. Ready?krgjm wrote:Every one is a sinner. Read this:
nonsense sentence. Can you contact the author and see if he can change it so it makes sense?krgjm wrote:
For there is no respect of persons with God.
Oh, I get it...it's from one of the bibles. That isn't evidence, any more than my copy of 'Silverlock' is evidence.krgjm wrote:according to my gospel.
Romans 2:11-16
What a nasty way to look at others. Do you have anything to base this awful belief on other than an old book that someone told you is true?krgjm wrote:
This says that all who sin will perish. It does not matter to God who you are; the wages of sin is death. Look at this carefully:
Whoever has the law (Jews) will be judged by the law.
Not only do you lack evidence, but with statements like this, you are clearly beyond being affected by facts. There is a concept called falsifiability which you might want to learn.krgjm wrote: It does not matter what you call yourself or who you claim to be; you are condemned.
If you go read that bible you have been thumping, you will see that Jesus didn't die, he pretended to, then went back up to heaven a few days later. No sacrifice.krgjm wrote: The only way out is to allow Jesus's death
You have no evidence that 'sin' exists. If you can provide some, I will stop thinking you are deluded by an old book of fiction. Please remember that the bible is not evidence of anything. It was invented by a guy named Carl a few years ago to dupe stupid people out of their money.krgjm wrote:to count as payment for your sin.
Didn't die, he just pretended he did. I wonder about his motives, don't you?krgjm wrote:He died for everyone.
You are the one trying to escape. There is no escape from death. Pretending that your life sucks here just so you can have a better one later just means that you waste your real life and never find out how wrong you were.krgjm wrote: But, if you claim you are not a sinner, you cannot claim before God on judgment day that he paid for your sin. It will be you and your sin standing before God. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation..."
I am not a sinner. If you have any evidence, I am open to listening. So far, all you have offered is personal belief and insult.
Post #165
If I were insulting you, would that be a sin?
What evidence is there to the claim that there is no sin? Government alone is enough evidence. People cannot live in harmony without laws. The reason is because it is survival of the fittest in this world. If we don't look out for ourselves, we die. So we have to make laws to make sure our looking out for ourselves does not interfere with another's looking-out-for-themselves. And it still doesn't work. The good of the law only works for the majority at best. There is always the fringe that is harmed even by the best government.
You think it is horrible to say all are sinners? I think it is horrible to say we are not! That implies that nobody is ever wronged. If nobody ever had to pay for their crime, there would be no justice. Try to make you point to a rape victim.
If we are talking human standards, clearly some are morally higher than others. Some obey the law and some do not. If you are talking God's standards, no one is morally higher than anyone else. We are all created sinners, all equally quilty before God because we have all violated his law. Their is only one morally higher; Jesus Christ. Our only hope is his high standard.
What evidence is there to the claim that there is no sin? Government alone is enough evidence. People cannot live in harmony without laws. The reason is because it is survival of the fittest in this world. If we don't look out for ourselves, we die. So we have to make laws to make sure our looking out for ourselves does not interfere with another's looking-out-for-themselves. And it still doesn't work. The good of the law only works for the majority at best. There is always the fringe that is harmed even by the best government.
You think it is horrible to say all are sinners? I think it is horrible to say we are not! That implies that nobody is ever wronged. If nobody ever had to pay for their crime, there would be no justice. Try to make you point to a rape victim.
If we are talking human standards, clearly some are morally higher than others. Some obey the law and some do not. If you are talking God's standards, no one is morally higher than anyone else. We are all created sinners, all equally quilty before God because we have all violated his law. Their is only one morally higher; Jesus Christ. Our only hope is his high standard.
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Zzyzx
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Post #166
Zzyzx donated 100 tokens to Darren with the following comments.
You made an outstanding reply to Krgjm in the "Tired of being considered a sinner" thread. "Demolished an argument" is not too strong a description. There is no logical comeback to your statements.
You made an outstanding reply to Krgjm in the "Tired of being considered a sinner" thread. "Demolished an argument" is not too strong a description. There is no logical comeback to your statements.
Darren wrote:I am going to look carefully through your post for evidence.
Can you contact the author and see if he can change it so it makes sense?
Oh, I get it...it's from one of the bibles. That isn't evidence, any more than my copy of 'Silverlock' is evidence.
What a nasty way to look at others. Do you have anything to base this awful belief on other than an old book that someone told you is true?krgjm wrote:This says that all who sin will perish. It does not matter to God who you are; the wages of sin is death. Look at this carefully:
Whoever has the law (Jews) will be judged by the law.
krgjm wrote:It does not matter what you call yourself or who you claim to be; you are condemned.
Not only do you lack evidence, but with statements like this, you are clearly beyond being affected by facts. There is a concept called falsifiability which you might want to learn.
If you go read that bible you have been thumping, you will see that Jesus didn't die, he pretended to, then went back up to heaven a few days later. No sacrifice.
krgjm wrote:to count as payment for your sin.
You have no evidence that 'sin' exists. If you can provide some, I will stop thinking you are deluded by an old book of fiction. Please remember that the bible is not evidence of anything. It was invented by a guy named Carl a few years ago to dupe stupid people out of their money.
krgjm wrote:He died for everyone.
Didn't die, he just pretended he did. I wonder about his motives, don't you?
You are the one trying to escape. There is no escape from death. Pretending that your life sucks here just so you can have a better one later just means that you waste your real life and never find out how wrong you were.
I am not a sinner. If you have any evidence, I am open to listening. So far, all you have offered is personal belief and insult.
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Post #170
Why must any code of conduct be justified on any ground aside from its usefulness for a particular purpose?krgjm wrote:I am being told my standard, the Bible is wrong. I would like to know which one is right, and the evidence that it is right.
