Tired of being considered a sinner.

[Darren]

Since I am not an adherant to christianity, I am not a sinner. Christians steadily refer to non-christians as sinners, but we are not - indeed we could not be.
I think it is important to make the distinction, because I for one do not want to be judged by their twisted and impossible system of right and wrong. I think christians would do well to remember that non-christian = non-sinner.

[Beto]

krgjm, do you believe your God's code of conduct was something original at the time it was passed down?

[krgjm]

Yes. Jesus says all the law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments:

1. To love God with all you heart, soul and mind, and
2. Love others as yourself.

That was the first code of conduct, and that still is the code of conduct. Adam and Eve knew it. Before the fall, he also told them to be fruitful and multiply, that a man and his wife are to separate from their parents and become one, not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and a couple others I won't tie you up with here. But the two above are the originals from God. Everything else gives us is to show us what those two things look like.

Before you come back with your rebutal, remember two things:

1. Every counterfeit has an element of truth in it.
2. In the beginning, there was one code of conduct; God's. Nothing had to be written until other codes of conducts came about. At some pont, with the development of other codes of conduct, things had to be written down to keep them straight. It is not necessary that the first code of conduct was written down first. The ten commandments weren't carved into stone until after 100s of years of captivity in Egypt. I am sure Egypt had codes of conduct, including those prohibiting murder, before that commandment was carved by God. That does not mean God copied the Egyptians.

[Dionysus]

Yes. Jesus says all the law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments:

1. To love God with all you heart, soul and mind, and
2. Love others as yourself.

That was the first code of conduct, and that still is the code of conduct. Adam and Eve knew it. Before the fall, he also told them to be fruitful and multiply, that a man and his wife are to separate from their parents and become one, not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and a couple others I won't tie you up with here. But the two above are the originals from God. Everything else gives us is to show us what those two things look like.

How were Adam & Eve to know that God's word was 'good' before they'd even of the fruit of the Tree? They utterly lacked the faculty to make moral, ethical and intellectual judgments; wherefore does God justify his condemnation of them?

1. Every counterfeit has an element of truth in it.

Prove this.

2. In the beginning, there was one code of conduct; God's. Nothing had to be written until other codes of conducts came about. At some pont, with the development of other codes of conduct, things had to be written down to keep them straight. It is not necessary that the first code of conduct was written down first. The ten commandments weren't carved into stone until after 100s of years of captivity in Egypt. I am sure Egypt had codes of conduct, including those prohibiting murder, before that commandment was carved by God. That does not mean God copied the Egyptians.

You presume that all men once acted exactly alike, and were only 'corrupted' many years later. This is the same stupidity present in both Thomas Hobbes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, in different ways; Thomas Hobbes presupposed all men to be naturally egoistic and 'degenerate' (philosophizing the Christian concept of original sin), and Rousseau presupposed the reverse, imagining early man to be a 'noble savage' corrupted by society (here we see traces of the Christian concept 'initial grace'). Neither are accurate; man is far too fickle and instable to be squared off in one generalizing statement, as Christianity is wont to make of him.

[krgjm]

Did God condemn Adam and Eve? I have not yet found that in the Bible. I do know that they knew they were not supposed to do what they did because Eve told the serpent that right before she did it. As a matter of fact, she knew it so well she added part that they should not even touch it. A curse followed because now that sin had entered the world, it and everything in it had to have an end so that sin would not persist for eternity.

Regarding counterfeit: look in the dictionary.

I am not presuming all men once acted alike. I am saying there was one code of conduct; one way in which it was right for them to act. That way was to act out of love for God and others.

[Dionysus]

Did God condemn Adam and Eve? I have not yet found that in the Bible. I do know that they knew they were not supposed to do what they did because Eve told the serpent that right before she did it. As a matter of fact, she knew it so well she added part that they should not even touch it. A curse followed because now that sin had entered the world, it and everything in it had to have an end so that sin would not persist for eternity.

Thanks for repeating the story. Now try to justify it. How was Eve to know that eating of the apple constituted 'evil' before she ever knew what it was?

Regarding counterfeit: look in the dictionary.

This proves what? Oh, that's right: nothing.

*snip more bullshit*

[krgjm]

She was supposed to know because God, who had just created her and everything else, said it.

I don't think I am going to be able to help you with the definition of counterfeit.

[Beto]

Did God condemn Adam and Eve? I have not yet found that in the Bible. I do know that they knew they were not supposed to do what they did because Eve told the serpent that right before she did it. As a matter of fact, she knew it so well she added part that they should not even touch it. A curse followed because now that sin had entered the world, it and everything in it had to have an end so that sin would not persist for eternity.

Thanks for repeating the story. Now try to justify it. How was Eve to know that eating of the apple constituted 'evil' before she ever knew what it was?

Regarding counterfeit: look in the dictionary.

This proves what? Oh, that's right: nothing.

*snip more bullshit*

Interesting point. Even if God warned Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, why would they comply if they had no notion of good and evil, or right and wrong? For a God to be angry at something like that demonstrates a level of intelligence similar to people that punish their dogs for something they have no way of relating to.

[Dionysus]

She was supposed to know because God, who had just created her and everything else, said it.

Why should she listen to him? She'd not know that heeding his words was either Good or Evil; she'd be utterly oblivious to the 'goodness' of anything he'd said, not having eaten of the fruit.

[Beto]

She was supposed to know because God, who had just created her and everything else, said it.

She was supposed to know before she ate from the tree of knowledge? How does that work?

[Chancellor]

Another reason?

I am of the opinion that his position is based on Belief, not reason.

ItS
Forgive
r~

Think of it this way: let's say you engaged in a certain practice (eating pasta with a fork, for example) and there was a religious group teaching that forks are an abomination. Let's say someone from that group called you a sinner because of your eating with a fork. Now, how is that an insult? In the mind of that religious person, your use of a fork makes you a sinner and, for him, it's not just belief but absolute truth.

Since Christianity teaches as truth (fact, reality, I'm using the three terms interchangeably) that all humans have sinned, and since it is reasonable to assume Darren is human, it logically follows that Darren is a sinner.