Tired of being considered a sinner.

[Darren]

Since I am not an adherant to christianity, I am not a sinner. Christians steadily refer to non-christians as sinners, but we are not - indeed we could not be.
I think it is important to make the distinction, because I for one do not want to be judged by their twisted and impossible system of right and wrong. I think christians would do well to remember that non-christian = non-sinner.

[McCulloch]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

[Darren]

We are supposed to be here to reproduce and study good and evil in order to know the mind of God. This is difficult if there is no sinning going on. Right?

Hey, Greatest, how is it that you rationalize worship of a god who has a torture chamber where he torments souls he created, for being exactly the way he created them?

With that kind of morality behind the word 'sin', can you really blame me for feeling insulted when I am included in such rubbish?

Maybe you could just be respectful to people who don't agree with your world-view and stop treating them (and more importantly, stop thinking of them) as sinners.
I don't think it is an unreasonable request.

[upallnite]

We are supposed to be here to reproduce and study good and evil in order to know the mind of God. This is difficult if there is no sinning going on. Right?

Regards
DL

If you can not see that from my position I am not a sinner then please do not use we. I do not want someone speaking for me that cannot grant me the simple courtesy of not calling me names. Thanks in advance.

As for your self, is all sin evil and the lack of sin always good? I could avoid the world and also avoid sin. But then I would not be able to help others. Sitting by while evil happens is evil in my book.

[Greatest I Am]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

I mean that if God started in a state of Perfection with a Perfect universe then for this condition to change to imperfection would not be possible. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.

God cannot be seen as back sliding.

Although we are in a perpetual state of evolution, God should be able to return at any time during our evolution and still see the Perfection that He started with. If He could not then we could say that He lost Perfection somewhere. God does not lose anything.

This Perfection, many do not see because they see evil and believe that it does not belong in a Perfect universe. They are wrong. Evil has always been part of Gods Perfect systems.

Genesis says that God saw the garden, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and stated that all was good. Even the evil. Since scripture indicates that all of Gods works are Perfect, I have upgraded the good, to Perfect.

Regards
DL

[Beto]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

I mean that if God started in a state of Perfection with a Perfect universe then for this condition to change to imperfection would not be possible. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.

God cannot be seen as back sliding.

Although we are in a perpetual state of evolution, God should be able to return at any time during our evolution and still see the Perfection that He started with. If He could not then we could say that He lost Perfection somewhere. God does not lose anything.

This Perfection, many do not see because they see evil and believe that it does not belong in a Perfect universe. They are wrong. Evil has always been part of Gods Perfect systems.

Genesis says that God saw the garden, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and stated that all was good. Even the evil. Since scripture indicates that all of Gods works are Perfect, I have upgraded the good, to Perfect.

Regards
DL

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

[Greatest I Am]

We are supposed to be here to reproduce and study good and evil in order to know the mind of God. This is difficult if there is no sinning going on. Right?

Hey, Greatest, how is it that you rationalize worship of a god who has a torture chamber where he torments souls he created, for being exactly the way he created them?

With that kind of morality behind the word 'sin', can you really blame me for feeling insulted when I am included in such rubbish?

Maybe you could just be respectful to people who don't agree with your world-view and stop treating them (and more importantly, stop thinking of them) as sinners.
I don't think it is an unreasonable request.

If you had read my posts you would know that I do not believe in a hell.
To think that God needs a hell to store souls that He has goofed in making Perfect is just plain dumb.

It would mean that all of His works are not Perfect and this is impossible for God.
At least according to scripture. It also follows logically.

As to thinking that we are all sinners, I am allowed an opinion. Since sinning is a requirement for us to learn, I do not assign a large negative connotation to the word and am not ashamed to call even myself the same.

If any place a larger negative emphasis on the word then it is their problem.
If it was good enough for Jesus to say then I am in good company.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

We are supposed to be here to reproduce and study good and evil in order to know the mind of God. This is difficult if there is no sinning going on. Right?

Regards
DL

If you can not see that from my position I am not a sinner then please do not use we. I do not want someone speaking for me that cannot grant me the simple courtesy of not calling me names. Thanks in advance.

As for your self, is all sin evil and the lack of sin always good? I could avoid the world and also avoid sin. But then I would not be able to help others. Sitting by while evil happens is evil in my book.

Many things are what we would call evil but they are not sins.
IE. Floods, earth quakes etc.

To me a sin must produce a victim directly or indirectly. If no one is offended by the sin, then it is not a sin.

I gues that the short answer is that yes all sin is evil.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

Maybe I am having problems making my difficulty understanding you clear. You contend that we [presumably all humans] are born perfect [or is it Perfect].
In the context of this statement, what do you mean by perfect? In what way are we perfect?

Here is your logic, as I see it:

1. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.
2. God is the only creator.
3. God is Perfect.
4. Therefore, all is perfect.

Premise (1) has not been shown to be true. Perhaps imperfection can come from perfection. The implied premise (2) has not been shown to be true. And the conclusion (4) is false, unless you have a different meaning for the word perfect than the rest of us use. Therefore, at least one of your premises is false or your logic is flawed.

Please let us know what you mean by Perfect. It would really help us to understand what you are getting at.

Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. Not all Humans are complete and flawless. Can you see my difficulty understanding your contention?

[Darren]

If you had read my posts you would know that I do not believe in a hell.
To think that God needs a hell to store souls that He has goofed in making Perfect is just plain dumb.

It would mean that all of His works are not Perfect and this is impossible for God.
At least according to scripture. It also follows logically.

As to thinking that we are all sinners, I am allowed an opinion.

I think I am also allowed an opinion here. Since you can't stop thinking of me as a 'sinner', I think you are intentionally closed-minded and insulting. Sinning is NOT a requirement for us to learn. It is not even a real thing that you can demonstrate. It is what is called an accusation with no evidence. Namecalling.

Since sinning is a requirement for us to learn, I do not assign a large negative connotation to the word and am not ashamed to call even myself the same.

I don't mind what you call yourself, it is when you call me names that I take issue with it.

If any place a larger negative emphasis on the word then it is their problem.
If it was good enough for Jesus to say then I am in good company.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't have that Jesus guy in my home. He was a lying, cheating hater, just like his virgin-loving father. I think George Carlin is good company. Should I start calling you what he told me you are, just because I think he is right? Would that be the same to you?

[Greatest I Am]

One of my contentions is that we are born Perfect.

This is the contention that I disagree with. What do you mean by perfect?
Perfection, as I understand it, implies completeness and flawlessness. No one is born complete and many are born flawed.

I mean that if God started in a state of Perfection with a Perfect universe then for this condition to change to imperfection would not be possible. From Perfection, only Perfection can come.

God cannot be seen as back sliding.

Although we are in a perpetual state of evolution, God should be able to return at any time during our evolution and still see the Perfection that He started with. If He could not then we could say that He lost Perfection somewhere. God does not lose anything.

This Perfection, many do not see because they see evil and believe that it does not belong in a Perfect universe. They are wrong. Evil has always been part of Gods Perfect systems.

Genesis says that God saw the garden, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil and stated that all was good. Even the evil. Since scripture indicates that all of Gods works are Perfect, I have upgraded the good, to Perfect.

Regards
DL

"Perfection" cannot evolve. We've been through this. You fail to understand the concept. As wiki states, "Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness." There is no room for "evolution" in "perfection".

I disagree.
If we are to say that God is Perfect and do not allow evolution to a higher state then we can say that He is stagnating at that level and that our own information and life is useless because it does not add to anything.

I don't see God as stagnating and not having some thing to keep Him interested and I cannot see our information as useless to Him or there would be no reason for any of this creation that we see.

Regards
DL