twobitsmedia wrote: In your "other" words, not mine. You could tell the difference if you could discern spirit.
I question your discernment.
Spirit and the law.
What the unknown author of the Gospel of John was thinking when he or she wrote about being “Born Again” seems different than what is being claimed by modern concepts of being “Born Again”. Today we even have born again virgins.
Koester has a number of books on the development of the various gospels. According to him baptism by water was the ritual and where being born again took place where there would be no distinction between water or spirit baptism and that the inclusion of spirit as a separated category was a later development.
If you look at the Hebrew writings concerning how the spirit work and compare it to the NT you will see that the NT is a rereading or interpretation of the Hebrew writings and not some much an extension but a highly Greek imposition.
If you mean agape then you are talking about being a servant or even slavery. It is a word used for the relationship between a servant and their masters not love as in affection.
What ever would be non-ordinary joy?
twobitsmedia wrote:
You cannot always tell the difference, especially right away. The "Spirit" is not a visible force by itself. It does take some discernment sometimes. . But someone who is motivated by the spirit, and one not can become clear. Born again, etc, all hinges on the spirit. I believe that without it one can run through the motions and even be sincere about it, but if it's not spirit, it's not via God. (not by might, but by my Spirit" Zechariah). Maybe, now that I think about it, the difference is whether the love is by might or by spirit....
So discernment is developed. How do you discern the difference between spirit and the results of successful brain washing?
How do you discern love and what do you even mean by the word “love”.
It all sounds rather circular and arbitrary and can hardly be discerned from self justification and rationalizations.
Your use of Zechariah is interesting as it taken out of context to support you relusive use of such words as “Spirit”, “Love” and “Born Again”.
Read what the Lord is saying to Zerubbabel. It is not the definition of spirit nor is it talking about being “born again”.
It is addressed to Zerubbabel and has nothing to do with the fiction of “Acts” or the powers mentioned by Paul and al the gifts.
Zechariah
Chapter 4
4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
So tell use how starting and finishing a temple or the two Messiahs relate to your being born again?
At least poor old Zerubbabel dream state and the prophet’s hope for him to be the kingly messiah and desire for the temple didn’t understand the messenger’s symbolisms but at least you have the messenger’s explanation which you don’t seem to understand as you spiritualize it to conform to you rather modern pop concept of being born again.
I can understand your need to have some spirit tell you what it means because you can’t seem to even read what the text is saying and there is little reason to interpret it with you bible-believing doctrines. They are not proof or evidence they are your misreading which you enjoy claiming it is someone’s lack of spirit is the reason others question your reading and interpretation. You are reading into the writings as you project your beliefs upon the material concepts not normally found in the writings.
What you call spiritual I find cultic.
How does one go through the motions and be sincere and still not have the spirit?
What do you think is the difference?
Please don’t bother telling me I can’t see spiritual thing as I understand what you are talking about, I do question that you know what you are talking about.
I can’t help but think you believe you have the spirit and will use any rationalization, apologetics or writings to justify your belief. There simply is not way of discerning the difference that isn’t a human quality as you present the doctrine.