The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[Evales]

I resent that. One could say the correlation is that people if a person is a theist they are more likely to be Pro-Life. Oppression breeds... etc.

You are correct in that there probably is a correlation between being a theist and being pro-life. Of course I would disagree with your view that it's oppression. I view it as saving innocent lives from being killed.

I retract what I said regarding oppression breeds, it was not needed and not beneficial to debate. However I was wondering if you honestly think that so many human beings support the taking of innocent life? It's not black and white people are not just evil.

Would you be so kind as to point out which points were skipped over, so we can defend ourselves from this accusation?

No, but you're more than welcome to look over all of my posts in this thread. They will explain my stance completely, and they give my answers to all the objections that have been raised.

After going over the topic I have found that most, if not all of your statements were thoroughly covered. Unless you would like to actually produce some evidence that we have had selective debating going on then could you retract your statement?

[Beto]

Would you be so kind as to point out which points were skipped over, so we can defend ourselves from this accusation?

No, but you're more than welcome to look over all of my posts in this thread. They will explain my stance completely, and they give my answers to all the objections that have been raised.

Oh, I'm fine with letting it up to the readers' discretion, as I'm quite confident your points were exposed for their nonsensicalness. The question was asked for your benefit, as you're the one that has withdrawn from a thread you started, without addressing the final posts, with the lame excuse of "not wanting to repeat yourself", but like I said, it's fine with me.

[jgh7]

I resent that. One could say the correlation is that people if a person is a theist they are more likely to be Pro-Life. Oppression breeds... etc.

You are correct in that there probably is a correlation between being a theist and being pro-life. Of course I would disagree with your view that it's oppression. I view it as saving innocent lives from being killed.

I retract what I said regarding oppression breeds, it was not needed and not beneficial to debate. However I was wondering if you honestly think that so many human beings support the taking of innocent life? It's not black and white people are not just evil.

Would you be so kind as to point out which points were skipped over, so we can defend ourselves from this accusation?

No, but you're more than welcome to look over all of my posts in this thread. They will explain my stance completely, and they give my answers to all the objections that have been raised.

After going over the topic I have found that most, if not all of your statements were thoroughly covered. Unless you would like to actually produce some evidence that we have had selective debating going on then could you retract your statement?

I'm sorry. I know it's kind of rude to leave people hanging by not responding to their comments. But the truth is that I've gone over these debates many times on forums devoted specifically to the abortion issue. After reading the posts here, I see that the arguments will just go in circles, and I definitely will end up repeating what I have already previously stated. I guess I just don't have the patience anymore

In any case, your comment about humans not being utterly evil to the point of where they support taking innocent life is an interesting one. I think humans are severely misguided, and it might go hand in hand with them being evil. Because of their extreme delusion, innocent lives are killed. We are so blinded by outward appearances, and we are so corrupted by thinking only for ourselves, that it becomes easy to disregard a fetus as a life.

[Evales]

I'm sorry. I know it's kind of rude to leave people hanging by not responding to their comments. But the truth is that I've gone over these debates many times on forums devoted specifically to the abortion issue. After reading the posts here, I see that the arguments will just go in circles, and I definitely will end up repeating what I have already previously stated. I guess I just don't have the patience anymore

It's not so much whether or not they will go in circles. It's that you claimed we skipped over some of your topics. I can't see anything we skipped over. It's a bit of a hefty claim in a debating forum.

In any case, your comment about humans not being utterly evil to the point of where they support taking innocent life is an interesting one. I think humans are severely misguided, and it might go hand in hand with them being evil. Because of their extreme delusion, innocent lives are killed. We are so blinded by outward appearances, and we are so corrupted by thinking only for ourselves, that it becomes easy to disregard a fetus as a life.

I've decided to respond to this in the other thread since this one is, as claimed by you, dead.

[Fallibleone]

I'm sorry. I know it's kind of rude to leave people hanging by not responding to their comments. But the truth is that I've gone over these debates many times on forums devoted specifically to the abortion issue.

Why, then, was this thread started?

After reading the posts here, I see that the arguments will just go in circles, and I definitely will end up repeating what I have already previously stated. I guess I just don't have the patience anymore

Instead of stating, try reading and understanding. I also could not vote in your poll, because it creates a false dichotomy. I abstain for the same reason a number of people have expressed. I must comment though that it is telling how instead of showing that this has been understood, the decision has been made first of all to criticise a perfectly valid objection as 'ridiculous', then to shoe-horn people into a specific, ill-fitting stance, then to claim that another's stance is insulting and finally to abandon the thread altogether. Perhaps something was learned after all - that people are individuals and don't fit neatly into inadequately contrived boxes. This applies to many areas of life, including religion.

[Confused]

MODERATOR ACTION:

Moved to Politics and Religion as even your poll is strikingly obvious that this thread is about religious politics.

As a debater, I can't claim religious or non-religious and support either at this exact moment (hence, confused), but I can say that as a woman, I do feel that it is my body, therefore, it is my right to determine what is done with it. The day a man can get pregnant, he can have a say in it, IMO. The day miscarriages stop happening, then God can have a say in it, IMO. Until then, my view will always have to default to "My body, my choice".

[guy fawkes]

It's interesting how some people will likely consider calling an egg or a sperm "humans", as a pretty nonsensical thing to say. But just because a sperm enters the egg, it goes automatically from "nonsensical" to "just right", when in fact, it's just a little bit less nonsensical. Can these people even visualize what they are now referring to as a "human"? How can anyone even consider "killing" an egg with a sperm inside?

I don't pretend to understand how conservative evangelicals think, if in fact they do think. They have their opinions like everyone else. The problem, however, is that their opinions have consequences. Scientists can't engage in stem cell research because it offends the religion of some people. Great advances in medical science have been delayed because some people want to live in the dark ages. Thank GOD for Obama.

No it hasnt. Sweden has been doing Stem Cell Research for a long time, actually, we have the biggest single supply of Stem Cells, we share them with other countries such as the U.S....

Oh, you meant YOUR country is in the Dark Ages, yeah, sorry, we know that.

So, Abortion was bad, but War and Executing a grown human being, is not.... Did I miss something in the logical part here? It seems that if it furthers there agenda, such as stealing oil, then its okay ro murder people, but if it does not, then its "bad", am I getting close?

Sweden. I am wondering

(1) Are their any brunettes in your country?
(2) Is the death metal better in Sweden of Norway?

1. Its more then 50% brunetes in this country, but apparently we are in general extremely blond in comparison to other nations because of our geography.

There is also different kind of blonds. Norwegian and Swedes look the same, whiles Finnish have a blonder, more palish look and Icelandic similar to that.

Really odd question


2. I dont listen to death metal, I would not know. I know we have a huge amount of it exporting (we are the third biggest music exporters in the world with only 9 million people), and Norway have practically no bands at all internationally, so I would PRESUME so, but like I said, I dont know about Death Metal. I prefer Mozart myself.

[guy fawkes]

I wanna move to Sweden... but we have better beaches.

I think that was the first time I've ever seen a Pro-Life person call another Pro-Choice as opposed to Pro-Abortion. I applaud you.

To add to the debate. The idea that and egg or group of cells is the same as a human or baby because it has human DNA... well fecal matter also has DNA in it. Cancerous cells also have human DNA. Appendix's have human DNA.

The next point to combat this one would be "But if you leave that group of cells it will become a baby"

The group of cells becomes a baby because it exists inside the mother. It is essentially a parasite:
From MW
Parasite:
"An organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
Something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return."

It should be the woman's choice. She should be allowed to choose whether or not she wants to incubate a parasite. Sure it will become a child in time. But perhaps she is not ready for that emotionally, physically or financially. She should have the choice.

I stayed at the Gold Coast and a bit further up, Gladstone there. I hate beaches myself, its just so warm. Damn heat.

The negative debate about stemcells is really scaring seeing these uneducated idiots trying to stop one of the most important medical studies of our time, theist are just evil people, maybe not intentionally, but via ignorance.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day.

There are some great posts in regards to the pro-choice adherents, so I won't repeat what has already been said.

I will say though, that many pro-life theists bring up the commandment from the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, a.k.a. the bible, 'Thou shalt not kill', as a defense for their demanding that another bow to their choices about the others body.

Considering that the commandment does not specify what is being killed, how can any of them demand that anyone else follow a commandment that the vast majority of them (being meat eaters, soldiers, kill insects, etc, etc) do not follow themselves ???

[Cephus]

IOW it is not a mutually exclusive position to believe that abortion is not something I would engage in AND beleive it is the individual's CHOICE not mine.

Sure it is. You're making your own choice, that abortion is something you don't want to engage in. You're entitled to that choice. That makes you pro-choice. Choice doesn't mean having to choose an abortion, you know.