Is your gods punishment fair?

[Confused]

I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I seem a little of center. I will try to stick to the rules. After reading these threads for many years, I am just now getting the courage to start to ask questions of my own. feel free to correct me if I mess up.

Ok, lets for the sake of this thread say that the god of christianity is all knowing. Lets say the he knew what you were going to do before you were born, but loved you so much he still allowed your birth to occur. Let us even go far out into the left field and say that he knew what choices you would make in all decisions although he didn't force you to make them. I am not arguing free-will vs determinism. I am only wondering how it is that this god who knew what you would do, loved you so much he allowed your birth to do what you were going to do, and then punished you for doing what he knew you were going to do. If he already knew what would happen, and then allowed it to happen, how can he then turn around and sentence you to eternity in hell for what he knew you would do and allowed you to do?

Maybe I am missing some logical link here, but it seems to me that if this god knew the birth of an individual would result in the torture and death of even one person, isn't this god the actual guilty party for setting into motion an inevitable event? Is this the god that so many people would like for me to follow?

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

[McCulloch]

Okay, let me try this without all the theological mumble jumble.

Let's take McCulloch for example.
He rejects the existence of a God. God knew this would happen. He knew McCulloch would fail to find Him, yet He loved Him so much, He allowed Him to be born knowing He would have to condemn Him at some point.

What is wrong with that picture?

Please, somebody explain to me how this can be called love?

Think of a world without McCulloch and tell me how it couldn't be Love?

Personally I believe the world is a better place because McCulloch is in it.

The God of the Christians apparently disagrees, in that I have not been invited to the next world.

[joer]

Okay, let me try this without all the theological mumble jumble.

Let's take McCulloch for example.
He rejects the existence of a God. God knew this would happen. He knew McCulloch would fail to find Him, yet He loved Him so much, He allowed Him to be born knowing He would have to condemn Him at some point.

What is wrong with that picture?

Please, somebody explain to me how this can be called love?

Think of a world without McCulloch and tell me how it couldn't be Love?

Personally I believe the world is a better place because McCulloch is in it.

The God of the Christians apparently disagrees, in that I have not been invited to the next world.

I'm a Christian McCulloch. And My God would NEVER reject you. Not after ALL he/she has done to save you. There may be christians who would tell you, you are not invited to the next world. But I tell not only are you invited, All the Christians in All the World couldn't stop God from not only inviting you BUT NO ONE and NO THING that EXISTS can prevent him from Loving YOU.

Of this McCulloch, I have no doubt. Aside from that you are TOO GOOD my brother. Not only is there no part of God that can forsake you, you will be a bright light to guide us in this next world. This I don't know for sure, But I believe this will be. In my mind there is to much goodness in your heart for it not to be true.

A reading from the letter of Paul
to the Romans

If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. Who will condemn? It was Christ Jesus who died rather was raised who is also at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.

What will separate us from the Love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Word of the Lord.

Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven."

Isaiah 63:8-9 "For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old."

[McCulloch]

I'm a Christian McCulloch. And My God would NEVER reject you.

That's right, I'm sorry. It is those other Christian's God that rejects me.

[joer]

I'm a Christian McCulloch. And My God would NEVER reject you.

That's right, I'm sorry. It is those other Christian's God that rejects me.

ROFL!!! Thank You my brother. That aught to save me from cancer for anotehr year!!

[Confused]

I'm a Christian McCulloch. And My God would NEVER reject you.

That's right, I'm sorry. It is those other Christian's God that rejects me.

ROFL!!! Thank You my brother. That aught to save me from cancer for anotehr year!!

I am aware how much of a liberal Christian you are Joer and I find that very respectable. But I am wondering what in scripture you would use to support McCulloch going to heaven or not being rejected by God as he has rejected the existence of Him.

I understand that one can interpret a lot of scripture in some very loose/diverse meanings. But for one who rejects the existence of God in any form, whom will never change that position (hypothetically of course, it is always possible God might show Himself to McCulloch and allow him to come to know Him), why would Christ not say "I have never knew you" when McCulloch stands to be judged?

[joer]

I'm a Christian McCulloch. And My God would NEVER reject you.

That's right, I'm sorry. It is those other Christian's God that rejects me.

ROFL!!! Thank You my brother. That aught to save me from cancer for another year!!

I am aware how much of a liberal Christian you are Joer and I find that very respectable. But I am wondering what in scripture you would use to support McCulloch going to heaven or not being rejected by God as he has rejected the existence of Him.

I understand that one can interpret a lot of scripture in some very loose/diverse meanings. But for one who rejects the existence of God in any form, whom will never change that position (hypothetically of course, it is always possible God might show Himself to McCulloch and allow him to come to know Him), why would Christ not say "I have never knew you" when McCulloch stands to be judged?

God Loves him to much. If you look up this page a little you'll the letter from Paul to the Romans, letting them know nothing can separate them from God. And then under that I posted this from Isaiah

Isaiah 63:8-9 "For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Savior. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old."

Then here's a few more that make me think McCulloch will get an acceptance letter from heaven. because he didn't have to apply. He's been enrolled since birth. He can only reject it but No One No Body else can keep him out. No matter what he says or does. When he demonstrates Not beyond a shadow of our doubt but beyond a shadow of God's doubt that he doesn't want to go on this ride. Then His Free Will lets him Opt Out. There's no Hell no Eternal Punishment. McCulloch got it right in this post from the "Is Hell Eternal Thread"
Post 7: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:35 pm

3. The Bible does not really teach what some Christians say that it teaches about eternal torment. This is the approach taken by Universalists (those Christians who claim that Jesus' sacrifice really is great enough to save all people) or Annihilationists (those Christians who claim that the worst fate is non-existence). Often traditional Christians accuse those who advocate either of these approaches as heretics.

If you Opt out it's "non-existence." and if you don't Opt Out than "Jesus' sacrifice really is great enough to save all people."


Jesus came for sinners McCulloch is no exception.

Luke 19:7-8 "And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

He came to get me and McCulloch and everybody. especially those who are lost.

Luke 19:9-10 "And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Luke 5:30 "But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?"

he ate and visited with them because they are the ones he most wanted to reach and he LOVES them.

Luke 7:34 "The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"

Luke 15:1-2 "Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."

When God finds McCulloch when he finds God, we're goin' to Parte. Yeah!

Luke 15:3-7 "And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost."

Matthew 18:12-14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."

Luke 15:8-9 "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost."

"I once was lost, but now I'm found." Amen
Some Christians forget this one. The ones not of this fold are non-believers, believers of other religions. he came for them Too. He came for everybody even McCulloch. That's how I know McCulloch will be welcome when he stands at the door.

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

McCulloch just denies God's existence. Peter fully believed in God and denied him three times. Who feels worse McCulloch or Peter? Who's sin is greater McCulloch or Peter's? It doesn't matter Jesus is fixing a place in the next life for BOTH of them and if they don't figure out how to get there, He'll come back and get them. That's how I know McCulloch will be welcomed.

John 13.37-38
37Peter said to him, "Master, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you." 38 Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for me? Amen, amen, I say to you, the cock will not crow before you deny me three times."
John 14:1-3
1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

Who gets the recognition here in this lesson? The sinner or the prideful righteous Christian? McCulloch gets preference again. because in his heart he is good. he and those humble Christians that accept ALL their brethren get the Nod from the the Man/Woman upstairs.

Luke 18:9-14 (Same) "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

These aren't the best ones Confused. Just a few I could pull up quickly. Believe me, God Loves McCulloch and all the non-believers here. But don't tell them I said so because I don't want offend them. To them I say,

Good Will and Peace be with you ALL, my friends.

[Confused]

I would also like to challenge you with an excercise that you may or may not accept. Instead of asking someone else to explain this to you. Why don't you try asking God? I've suggested this to a number of atheists on this site. So far, no a single one has been brave enough to try it. Pray to God, read His word, and seek to know His nature. Once you get to know God, and learn more about Him. The answers are actually pretty simple.

Hey Firedup, I hereby accept your challenge! I swear to Lord Jesus this is what I will do later this evening:
1) I will pray to God. I will ask Him: Why did you make us knowing the outcome - but then tell us in the bible that we had free will? This is a conundrum that I believe helps prove your non-existence. Please, dear God, tell me what the answer is!
2) I will open my heart fully to His answer. I will listen to my inner self - my subconscious, my heart, to the trees...everything around me and inside me.
3) I have a copy of of the bible I keep near my computer that I use as a reference from time to time. I will read some of His word and, once again listen and pray.
4) I will do everything I can to "know" God.
5) I will await "simple" answers.
I will clear my head and NOT assume any outcome to this challenge. I promise. If He does indeed come to me, I will think it was pretty dang cool and will be glad to tell you about it.
However, if His answer does not match yours, I will expect you accept that you are wrongly interpreting His word and need to change your argument. I want to avoid getting into some bizarre debate about who is hearing God's word correctly.

Yes, I am a smarty pants by nature, but I am completely serious about this. I will seriously try this with all my heart.
Kapeesh?

How did this end up working out for you Cmass? Did you find God? Were you true in your search? Do you agree with His method of justice?

[joer]

Hey Cmass????

I was wondering too. Did you ever do the test? I've tried to get non-belivers here to try it with me as FiredUp suggested to you, but I never found one who was willing to try it.

So I was wondering Cmass, did you try it?

I don't know if fired up told you, but faith is real important in the test. Even if it's just a flicker of faith it has to be a sincere flicker. Like, "God I don't if you are there or not But if you are.....and then your prayer." BUT not just the words, you really have to feel that inside, that there IS a possibility of an answer. And the prayer has to be real to. The more real the better. Like not "I pray for a million dollars," More like, "God I have never believed in you seriously, but if you exist somehow let me know that you exist". If you could pray something like that with sincerity. I think you may get a positive result. It doesn't matter what you pray for, BUT the prayer must have real and sincere value to you.

Sorry I didn't mean to but in. Follow what ever you setup with FiredUp. I trust and admire what you two are trying. There is something about co-operation, a co-creative effort that ADDS value to the process. I can't explain why. I've just found that to be true. That might be why He said something like, "Where ever two or more of you are gathered, there I'll be."

[FinalEnigma]

The reason that I never respond to challenges such as this, is that I have done this in the past. I have honestly, sincerely prayed to God. I even literally started with "I don't know if you exist, I'm not even sure if I believe in you or not, but if you do exist..." And I didn't do this at the prodding of a theist or anybody else.

And they were not selfish or frivolous prayers. they were honest, sincere, and meaningful.

Considering I am an atheist, I'll give you one guess what happened.

There was no response. and if I assume the christian PoV that God just sometimes says no, then he REALLY said no. he said no, and I will punish you for asking(you vile heathen/atheist).

So either I prayed sincerely, and God said "no, screw you."
or I prayed sincerely, and God didn't answer.

This has happened more than once. Every time I have prayed, asked God for help, or asked God's aid for another, he either stood silent, and I had some unlucky coincidences, or he made my life worse.

Joer, Confused, any and all theists out there: What happened?

edit: Im turning this post into a thread.

[joer]

The reason that I never respond to challenges such as this, is that I have done this in the past. I have honestly, sincerely prayed to God. I even literally started with "I don't know if you exist, I'm not even sure if I believe in you or not, but if you do exist..." And I didn't do this at the prodding of a theist or anybody else.

And they were not selfish or frivolous prayers. they were honest, sincere, and meaningful.

Considering I am an atheist, I'll give you one guess what happened.

There was no response. and if I assume the christian PoV that God just sometimes says no, then he REALLY said no. he said no, and I will punish you for asking(you vile heathen/atheist).

So either I prayed sincerely, and God said "no, screw you."
or I prayed sincerely, and God didn't answer.

This has happened more than once. Every time I have prayed, asked God for help, or asked God's aid for another, he either stood silent, and I had some unlucky coincidences, or he made my life worse.

Joer, Confused, any and all theists out there: What happened?

edit: Im turning this post into a thread.

Hi Final, Good to hear from you friend. I would say a couple of things about praying. Some things take a long time. Other's are right away. Not only is the act of praying an art of becoming completly sincere. The act of receiving the answer is an art of becoming receptive and intuitive to the many ways an answer may reach you. You may have heard this many times Final. But it is something that takes a while to distinguish.

I also think that sometimes the involvement of someone else helps for some reason. I think the reason is to show that co-operative effort is more valuable than solo effort. We are here for each other is one of the simplest and hardest lessons to learn. But in time the profundity of that concept, in regards to being God like or doing God's Will, is not Lost on one. Here's a few things to consider about Prayer that may help in the success of One's test. I think one of the most important things is, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again."

Aside from all that is superself in the experience of praying, it should be remembered that ethical prayer is a splendid way to elevate one's ego and reinforce the self for better living and higher attainment. Prayer induces the human ego to look both ways for help: for material aid to the subconscious reservoir of mortal experience, for inspiration and guidance to the superconscious borders of the contact of the material with the spiritual

Prayer ever has been and ever will be a twofold human experience: a psychologic procedure interassociated with a spiritual technique. And these two functions of prayer can never be fully separated.

No prayer can be ethical when the petitioner seeks for selfish advantage over his fellows. Selfish and materialistic praying is incompatible with the ethical religions which are predicated on unselfish and divine love. All such unethical praying reverts to the primitive levels of pseudo magic and is unworthy of advancing civilizations and enlightened religions. Selfish praying transgresses the spirit of all ethics founded on loving justice.

Prayer must never be so prostituted as to become a substitute for action. All ethical prayer is a stimulus to action and a guide to the progressive striving for idealistic goals of superself-attainment.

In all your praying be fair; do not expect God to show partiality, to love you more than his other children, your friends, neighbors, even enemies....Egoistic prayers involve confessions and petitions and often consist in requests for material favors. Prayer is somewhat more ethical when it deals with forgiveness and seeks wisdom for enhanced self-control.

While the nonselfish type of prayer is strengthening and comforting, materialistic praying is destined to bring disappointment and disillusionment as advancing scientific discoveries demonstrate that man lives in a physical universe of law and order. The childhood of an individual or a race is characterized by primitive, selfish, and materialistic praying. And, to a certain extent, all such petitions are efficacious in that they unvaryingly lead to those efforts and exertions which are contributory to achieving the answers to such prayers. The real prayer of faith always contributes to the augmentation of the technique of living, even if such petitions are not worthy of spiritual recognition.

Remember, even if prayer does not change God, it very often effects great and lasting changes in the one who prays in faith and confident expectation. Prayer has been the ancestor of much peace of mind, cheerfulness, calmness, courage, self-mastery, and fair-mindedness in the men and women...

If you would like to try an experiment with me either on thread or via PM I would be more than amenable to such a joint effort. Peace be with you friend.