Is Insha'Allah" (God Willing) OK for Christian

[joer]

Is Insha'Allah" (God Willing) OK for Christians to use, but not Muslims? or visa versa?

Fisherking posted the following on a thread created to give positive support to believers. This is a site that is open to debate Religious views of ALL forms. A primary focus of debate is entailed in its name. Debating Christianity.com. It appears some disapprove of the expression Insa Allah I dont even know if it's spelt right. Im not even sure of its exact translated meaning. But I have heard it used often. And I have heard it used By Middle Eastern Christians AS WELL AS Muslims and loosely translated as according to Gods Will and more colloquially as God Willing.

As I used it initially was not with an intent to differentiate between Middle Eastern Muslims using the term OR Middle Eastern Christians using the term. Or any bodies particular meaning associated with the word. I meant it quite generally and honestly as turning over of OUR doing of Gods in GOOD FAITH as an action offered up to serve the Will of God as is implied by the term God Willing OR as translated into a Middle eastern tongue Insha'Allah". Thus reminding myself and my brothers and sisters that service in doing Gods Will is a global endeavor and NOT just a local isolated expression.

But it seems pretty obvious that some people here and at least one declared Christian fundamentalist. Whose post is included here.

It appears this post is more of a challenge than an Affirmation of Faith. So I offer it up here for debate where it belongs, for Fisherman or any other believer who cares to review the arguments as presented.

May we learn and do God's Will in Good Faith. Insa' Allah. is:
May we learn and do God's Will in Good Faith. God Willing.
Fear not my brothers and sisters to do the Will of God and bless the doing of God's Will

Yes, but most Christian do not worship a Muslim god.

in every Language and Culture on Earth for that is God's and Christ's Will.
In this country the Hispanic population is rising. And your Hispanic bothers and sisters who are faithful in remembering that all comes from God. And All should take joy in doing God's Will. When they share a blessing or an expression of their desired behavior or achievement they say "Si Dios Quiere!" - God Willing. Fear not your Muslim brothers and sisters who bow before and bend their life and actions in life to Serve and Honor God by doing God's Will.

Yes, but Islam is a religion(a false one in my opinion).

Follow Not those who profess to do God's Will in any language or Culture even professed Christians who then go and DO THIER OWN HUMAN WILL to hate and fear others

I do not hate or fear them, I just consider their religion to be false, based on the false teachings of Muhammad.

May we learn and do God's Will in Good Faith. Insa' Allah.

Hi joer,
Why did you post the Muslim phrase "Insa' Allah" in the Christian forum? Would you consider removing the phrase from your post?

In Christian love,
GentleDove

Mere_Christian

joer,

Me too.

By the way, are you a photographer of wildlife?

So my question to you Fisherking and to any other believers who wish to comment, Are you Objecting to the use of the language regardless of weather Christians or Muslims are using it? Or are you objecting to just the use of the term Insa Allah (God Willing) ONLY when A Christian uses it regardless of where that Christian comes from?

Here's a little reference on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha'Allah

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Is Insha'Allah" (God Willing) OK for Christians to use, but not Muslims? or visa versa?...
I meant it quite generally and honestly as turning over of OUR doing of Gods in GOOD FAITH as an action offered up to serve the Will of God as is implied by the term God Willing OR as translated into a Middle eastern tongue Insha'Allah". Thus reminding myself and my brothers and sisters that service in doing Gods Will is a global endeavor and NOT just a local isolated expression.

I spam the thread to point out I think this is a very important topic, if only among theists (though the potentials could extend to all).

I applaud Joer's broaching the subject, as the initiator of the conversation in the initial threads mentioned, and as an OP in its own right.

Of course I lack sufficient understanding to tell anyone who their god is, or how they should (non-harmfully) worship such god.

I will mention red-eye gravy, just cause its so good with a big butter soaked cat-head biscuit!

[joer]

From the OP:

Is Insha'Allah" (God Willing) OK for Christians to use, but not Muslims? or visa versa?...
I meant it quite generally and honestly as turning over of OUR doing of Gods in GOOD FAITH as an action offered up to serve the Will of God as is implied by the term God Willing OR as translated into a Middle eastern tongue Insha'Allah". Thus reminding myself and my brothers and sisters that service in doing Gods Will is a global endeavor and NOT just a local isolated expression.

I spam the thread to point out I think this is a very important topic, if only among theists (though the potentials could extend to all).

I applaud Joer's broaching the subject, as the initiator of the conversation in the initial threads mentioned, and as an OP in its own right.

Of course I lack sufficient understanding to tell anyone who their god is, or how they should (non-harmfully) worship such god.

I will mention red-eye gravy, just cause its so good with a big butter soaked cat-head biscuit!

Gracias mi amigo Joey! I like your sombrero! Your Mayberry character Opie and your recipe for red-eye gravy.

In Post 18: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:15 pm

Indeed. No need to compare them when many Christians consider them to be identical.

If I was able to go to lots and lots of Churches (worldwide even) next weekend and ask the congregants coming out of them if "Allah and Jesus and YHWH" were the same God, I'm betting they would not agree. (And in some leftist Churches YHWH and Jesus may not get thye nod either.)

And we know what would happen to me (or anyone else) if that question were posed to people leaving the Mosque.

I'll take the wagging heads of the Christians rather than the tumbling off my shoulders of my own from the response of the Muslims.

and in Post 19: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:16 pm FisherKing wrote:

MagusYanum wrote:

It's still an irrelevant objection. If a Christian is speaking in Arabic and refers to God as Allah, there is no equivocation.

Remember, the points I responded were based on these statements:
joer wrote:

"May we learn and do God's Will in Good Faith. Insa' Allah. is:
May we learn and do God's Will in Good Faith. God Willing."

It is a relevant objection If the Christian that is speaking believes Allah of the Quran is the the same God as the one in the bible(or a, b, d, or e in the following quote). This cannot be established from joer's statement alone. From joer's statement Allah could mean any of the following:

Magus has clarified how he wishes to use the word Allah ( "We're not talking about the god of the Quran") implying he refers to the God of the bible.
Joer did not, so the objection of equivocation stands.

In Post 20: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:17 pm

BTW, I was "assuming" we were using Allah the god of the Koran.

I wasnt. Goat wrote:

BTW, I was "assuming" we were using Allah the god of the Koran.

The Muslims believe it is the God of Abraham. Christians believe they are worshiping the God of Abraham. They both believe they are worshiping the same God, although in a different manner.

Goat precieved my meaning correctly. Thats exactly the way I took it and meant it. BOTH worshipping the same God of Abraham or Ibrahim as he is referred to in a more traditional older tongue.

BTW, I was "assuming" we were using Allah the god of the Koran.

This raises an interesting question. There are a number of monotheistic religions. They all share the common idea that there can be only one God, and seek to describe the characteristics and interaction between humans and this God. It is difficult for me to determine whether they are describing the same God differently (some of them erroneously) or are they describing different Gods (only one of them the real one).

Is the God of the Qu'ran the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is the God of the Jews, the same as the God of Jesus? Is the God of the Mormons the same as the God of the Unitarians? Is the God of the Association of Regular Baptist Churches the same as the God of the Methodist Reform Church or the Calvinists?

Just how far off the beam do you have to be before you are describing a different God?

Frankly, to me, it is much like a debate about whether St. Nicholas, Father Christmas and Santa Claus are the same.

Mac brings up an excellent point. There is God and there is the way we perceive God. And one is NOT equivalent to the other. We as believers should understand that by now and quite quibbling over OUR differences in perception.

It is a relevant objection If the Christian that is speaking believes Allah of the Quran is the the same God as the one in the bible(or a, b, d, or e in the following quote). This cannot be established from joer's statement alone. From joer's statement Allah could mean any of the following:

This is the OP.

Are you Objecting to the use of the language regardless of weather Christians or Muslims are using it? Or are you objecting to just the use of the term Insa Allah (God Willing) ONLY when A Christian uses it regardless of where that Christian comes from?

When a Christian uses it in blessing (which was the issue in the OP), it is an obvious reference to the God worshipped by that Christian, just the way 'God' is in English. Therefore, a, b, d and e simply do not apply.

Magnus is sharp Fisherking. You try to drive a wedge between the Muslims and Christians as to the God they worship. But there is no difference other than that, which the observer perceives. And Magnus has recognized that POV from his critical evaluation of my expression. Your argument tries to instill doubt but Magus argument is critically more precise.

Mere-Christian wrote:

As a Christian, I think it is inappropriate to connect Jesus and Allah.

This is the crux of the problem. Plain and simply. It has nothing to do with historical reference to God and Allah being the same.

Its all about a negative emotion that some Christians and Muslims harbor towards each other after years or better yet centuries and even close to millenniums of antagonism towards each other.

Thats the plain and simply gist of it as Mere-Christian simply lays it bare.

So is it justified for us as fundamentalist Christians and/or Muslims to continue imposing our war and hatred of each other onto the rest of humanity? Or is it high time that humanity unifies as a world of believers and non-believers and tell these warring factions that enough is enough? I not only believe that the later is the way to proceed. I believe that the later especially with the recent change of administrations in the world are proceeding in this direction.

No longer will the civilized world and more powerful world leaders when united tolerate this terrorizing antagonism to continue. It must stop. And it will stop. Peace WILL PREVAIL and BY PEACEFUL MEANS. Believers and non-believers will not stand for religious wars of one faction killing another. It serves NO ONEs GOD or anyones NON-GOD to do so. That type of religious killing is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. It will be stopped. Of this I have NO DOUBT. And as a believer in the God that is everybodys God even if seen differently from the many religious perspectives, I say InshaAllah, God Willing this religious killing will stop. Or in that which is NO-GOD to those who have no God. I say this Will Come to Be that killing of any kind is a crime against Humanity and it will be Stopped.

[Zzyzx]

.
If anyone actually believes that mankind should strive for unity and peace, WHY would they promote a particular religious belief system?

Religion is DIVISIVE, not cohesive. Each "in group" opposes "others", typically in a "with us or against us" mentality. That is verified daily in the positings by Fanatics, Fundamentalists and Literalists. "It is my way or you are going to hell".

Religious ELITISM, declaring that "my god (or worship practices) are right and those who oppose me are wrong", is a recipe for discord, suspicion, conflict, hostility, and often warfare.

REDUCING religious divisiveness and fanaticism should be an objective of those who seek peace " and not by conquering all who oppose their god theories.

[Fisherking]

Well then, allow me to pose to you a counter-question:

In what ways do points a, b, d and e refer solely and specifically to the Arabic word for 'God' (Allah), rather than to, say, the English word for 'God'?

That's not really where my objection lies though. If a Christian believed the God of the bible and the god of the Quran, the greek gods, norse gods, ect.(for example) were all the same God, and then proceded to suggest that we do God's will, God's will could be anything from thou shalt not steal to worshiping cows.

Magnus is sharp Fisherking. You try to drive a wedge between the Muslims and Christians as to the God they worship. But there is no difference other than that, which the observer perceives.

Statements like these would lead me to believe the above is equivocating the God of the bible with the god of the Quran. There are differences, and to suggest otherwise is false.

[MagusYanam]

That's not really where my objection lies though. If a Christian believed the God of the bible and the god of the Quran, the greek gods, norse gods, ect.(for example) were all the same God, and then proceded to suggest that we do God's will, God's will could be anything from thou shalt not steal to worshiping cows.

So I don't get where your objection lies. If an English-speaking Christian says 'God willing', it should be fairly obvious that they are referring to the Trinity rather than to, for example, Thor. So why shouldn't an Arabic-speaking Christian be allowed to say 'Insha'Allah'?

[joer]

Fisherking, you wrote:

Statements like these would lead me to believe the above is equivocating the God of the bible with the god of the Quran. There are differences, and to suggest otherwise is false.

I wrote:

But there is no difference other than that, which the observer perceives.

Are you Fisherking saying there is more than One God? If there isnt how can the differences be more than that of the perception and belief of the Observer?

I'm puzzled by your statement, Fisherking.

[Fisherking]

Let's do a quick summary before the debate takes off in all directions. The original questions for debate were:

So my question to you Fisherking and to any other believers who wish to comment, Are you Objecting to the use of the language regardless of weather Christians or Muslims are using it? Or are you objecting to just the use of the term Insa Allah (God Willing) ONLY when A Christian uses it regardless of where that Christian comes from?

My object was that joer was using the term "Allah" equivocally:
1 a: subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse <an equivocal statement> b: uncertain as an indication or sign <equivocal evidence>
2 a: of uncertain nature or classification <equivocal shapes> b: of uncertain disposition toward a person or thing : undecided <an equivocal attitude> c: of doubtful advantage, genuineness, or moral rectitude <equivocal behavior>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocal

MagusYanum seems to think that joer was refering to the Trinity and the Christian god of the bible:

So I don't get where your objection lies. If an English-speaking Christian says 'God willing', it should be fairly obvious that they are referring to the Trinity rather than to, for example, Thor. So why shouldn't an Arabic-speaking Christian be allowed to say 'Insha'Allah'?

Goat then stumbles onto what joer really meant:

The Muslims believe it is the God of Abraham. Christians believe they are worshiping the God of Abraham. They both believe they are worshiping the same God, although in a different manner.

Goat precieved my meaning correctly. Thats exactly the way I took it and meant it. BOTH worshipping the same God of Abraham.

Do you realize that when ones "different manner" is contradictory to the others "different manner", both cannot be true?

There is God and there is the way we perceive God. And one is NOT equivalent to the other. We as believers should understand that by now and quite quibbling over OUR differences in perception

My perception is that the God of the bible is the only true God and that all other false gods and perceptions are in error. Surely you do not wish to quibble over my perception

You try to drive a wedge between the Muslims and Christians as to the God they worship. But there is no difference other than that, which the observer perceives. And Magnus has recognized that POV from his critical evaluation of my expression. Your argument tries to instill doubt but Magus argument is critically more precise.

MagusYanum was under the impression you were referring to God as perceived by Christians, and not that of the Muslim. Is that correct?

Are you Fisherking saying there is more than One God?

In my opinion there is only one God, but I also realize there are many false gods.

If there isnt how can the differences be more than that of the perception and belief of the Observer?

There are false gods spoken of throughout the bible that men made unto themselves. The God of the bible said not to have or worship any of these false gods.
Now you seem to be equivocating the term God. Perhaps you could specify what God you are referring, and what attributes you believe God to have.

[Zzyzx]

.

My perception is that the God of the bible is the only true God and that all other false gods and perceptions are in error. Surely you do not wish to quibble over my perception.

I do not challenge or criticize your PERCEPTION (OPINION) regarding your preferred "god" " PROVIDED that you do not present your opinion as truth for others.

There are false gods spoken of throughout the bible that men made unto themselves. The God of the bible said not to have or worship any of these false gods.

Yes, there are STORIES in an ancient book claiming to be "the word of god". There are other stories in other ancient books claiming to be the "word" of other "gods".

"Gods" appear to be competitive, jealous, and dangerous according to tales in ancient books (tales that cannot be verified).

How can anyone KNOW which, if any, of the tales are true?

[Goat]

Let's do a quick summary before the debate takes off in all directions. The original questions for debate were:

So my question to you Fisherking and to any other believers who wish to comment, Are you Objecting to the use of the language regardless of weather Christians or Muslims are using it? Or are you objecting to just the use of the term Insa Allah (God Willing) ONLY when A Christian uses it regardless of where that Christian comes from?

My object was that joer was using the term "Allah" equivocally:
1 a: subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse <an equivocal statement> b: uncertain as an indication or sign <equivocal evidence>
2 a: of uncertain nature or classification <equivocal shapes> b: of uncertain disposition toward a person or thing : undecided <an equivocal attitude> c: of doubtful advantage, genuineness, or moral rectitude <equivocal behavior>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocal

Perhaps it is not Joer that is doing so, but you are. From his post, the context in which he used the term 'Allah', and from his past posts, it is obvious what meaning of the term 'Allah' was being used. The fact you got upset, and purposely used a different term has no bearing on how Joer used it.

MagusYanum seems to think that joer was refering to the Trinity and the Christian god of the bible:

So I don't get where your objection lies. If an English-speaking Christian says 'God willing', it should be fairly obvious that they are referring to the Trinity rather than to, for example, Thor. So why shouldn't an Arabic-speaking Christian be allowed to say 'Insha'Allah'?

Goat then stumbles onto what joer really meant:

The Muslims believe it is the God of Abraham. Christians believe they are worshiping the God of Abraham. They both believe they are worshiping the same God, although in a different manner.

And the God of Abraham is the God of Abraham. Christians believe they are worshiping the God of Abraham. The Jews believe they are worshiping the God
of Abraham, and the Muslims believe the same. Christian arabs use the term to describe God. It is a generic term.

Goat precieved my meaning correctly. Thats exactly the way I took it and meant it. BOTH worshipping the same God of Abraham.

Do you realize that when ones "different manner" is contradictory to the others "different manner", both cannot be true?

Nonsense. When tying a tie on you, does using a windsor knot verses the 4 in one make a difference to the fact you are wearing a tie? Are they both ties??

[joer]

Hi Fisherking, Thanks for the reply. Your God of the Bible's blessings be with you.
You wrote:

My object was that joer was using the term "Allah" equivocally:
1 a: subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse <an equivocal statement> b: uncertain as an indication or sign <equivocal evidence>
2 a: of uncertain nature or classification <equivocal shapes> b: of uncertain disposition toward a person or thing : undecided <an equivocal attitude> c: of doubtful advantage, genuineness, or moral rectitude <equivocal behavior>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocal

MagusYanum seems to think that joer was refering to the Trinity and the Christian god of the bible:

I can see a problem right away Fisherking.. Several things actually. The way you are presenting your position has very little with the truth of what I meant and intended which Magus and Goat correctly perceived. And everything to do with your argument that things can be seen differently and the way you see them is the right way.

Anything can be termed equivocal the way you are presenting it. All you need is someone to say they took it a different way. But thats exactly what Im saying in my response to your argument That God is unequivocally the same regardless of how anyone, you or I or a Muslim refers to Him. Furthermore Magnus and Goat unequivocally understood and interpreted my usage correctly and you unequivocally did not. Equivocation can be little more than disagreeing on perception. Which is exactly my point again.

The equivocation is the way your are taking and reflecting the meaning of the terms I used and how I intended to use them. And your argument is based on the idea that your perception is right and others is wrong.

My point is God is what God is or IS NOT in the case of the non-believer. The rest is perception as far as humans are concerned. And no perception of what God is, is unequivocal. BUT what one perceives is unequivocal in their experience. Its what others perceive of their brethrens perception that has the potential of being equivocal.

For example you use the term "the Christian god". The kind of Christians I run around with would generally write the Christian God with a Capital to indicate the unequivocal nature of GOD.

And in your statement,

MagusYanum seems to think that joer was refering to the Trinity and the Christian god of the bible:

Where Magus said

When a Christian uses it in blessing (which was the issue in the OP), it is an obvious reference to the God worshipped by that Christian

So the reference to Magus thinking that I was referring to Christian god of the bible. seems to be an equivocation on your part AGAIN. Because you seem to use that terminology god of the bible much more than myself or Magus or many others here. Magus said the God worshipped by that Christian. Which has quite a different meaning than your words that you are trying to equate to his or others usage. It doesnt work Fisherking because it is an equivocal reference to our usage and meaning when we refer to God. IMHO.

FK you write:

joer wrote:

There is God and there is the way we perceive God. And one is NOT equivalent to the other. We as believers should understand that by now and quite quibbling over OUR differences in perception

My perception is that the God of the bible is the only true God and that all other false gods and perceptions are in error. Surely you do not wish to quibble over my perception

Even though I get the humor FK. I would add that while I wont quibble over the FACT that, that IS YOUR PRECEPTION, I would say it is not my perception of God and THAT IS NOT WORTH KILLING each other over.

You write incorrectly again:

MagusYanum was under the impression you were referring to God as perceived by Christians, and not that of the Muslim. Is that correct?

The not that of the Muslim. Is another equivocation on your part as it is your invention and not Magus.

Magus correctly posited:

It's still an irrelevant objection. If a Christian is speaking in Arabic and refers to God as Allah, there is no equivocation.

Which is quite a different position than that which you are trying to apply to him. FK

You write:

Now you seem to be equivocating the term God. Perhaps you could specify what God you are referring, and what attributes you believe God to have.
Your just repeating in npot so different words the same thing you said in your firat response on this thread.

I asked you to clarify what you meant by your objection. As to what exactly you objected to in the OP.

So my question to you Fisherking and to any other believers who wish to comment, Are you Objecting to the use of the language regardless of weather Christians or Muslims are using it? Or are you objecting to just the use of the term Insa Allah (God Willing) ONLY when A Christian uses it regardless of where that Christian comes from?

And rather than answering my question you just jumped to another position on equivocation.

So rather then truthfully saying what you meant by your initial objection to the use of InshaAllah or Insa Allah the way I initially spelt it, You jumped into an attack claiming I was confusing the meaning:

My objection was the equivocation of terms God, Allah, and will. The God of the bible is not the same thing as the god of the Quran. The will of the God of the bible is not always the will of the god of the Quran.

I understand your attack. But you still havent answered the initial question of the OP. What WAS YOUR MEANING in terms of your initial objection? I respect Mere_Christian for his/her forthrightness in saying:

As a Christian, I think it is inappropriate to connect Jesus and Allah.

While you might be right or wrong in your attack on equivocation. YOU are the ONLY ONE who really knows what you objected to in the first place in terms of the usage in the first place. Was it like Mere_Christian, were you objecting to me as a Christian using the term Insa Allah?

I mean youre the only who knows that answer Fisherking. Why dont share it with us? Dont be embarrassed. You are among friends. I see you as my brother and Im sure many here do, regardless of the position, POV or World View you hold. IMHO.

May Your God of the Bible's Peace be with you.