The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[Treefur]

It's generally accepted that children carrying babies to term have serious health risks involved.
Which would endanger the lives of both the mother AND the child.
In the light of that, you still declare that this child needs to be forced to carry to term?

Also, don't confuse protection with rights. Yes, children are protected until the age of 18. That's exactly what I meant by adults have more rights as individuals and as people.
In that vain, yes I do think a mother has more of a right to live and control her life than a forming child. Don't confuse that statement with abortion should be legal at the whim of the mother. Obviously restrictions need to stay in place to prevent abuse of the system.

[scottlittlefield17]

I don't believe the mother has any more right to kill her child than to kill the rapist who abused her. Now about the health of the mother, if you saw a murder in process and you shot the would be murderer you are going to prison for murder. Yes you saved someones life but you also took someones life. I believe the same logic applies to abortion. Also as a side note if i understand correctly if someone kills a pregnant woman and the baby dies as well the murderer goes to jail for two murders, whether the mother was 13 or not. Even if the baby was deformed he would go for two murders. So the mother killing her child I see as no less of murder.

[Goat]

I don't believe the mother has any more right to kill her child than to kill the rapist who abused her. Now about the health of the mother, if you saw a murder in process and you shot the would be murderer you are going to prison for murder. Yes you saved someones life but you also took someones life. I believe the same logic applies to abortion. Also as a side note if i understand correctly if someone kills a pregnant woman and the baby dies as well the murderer goes to jail for two murders, whether the mother was 13 or not. Even if the baby was deformed he would go for two murders. So the mother killing her child I see as no less of murder.

It's not a child yet> And, are you aware of the lifetime health complictions when a 13 year old girl has when she bears a child?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 15 Post 142

>quote mining for clarity<

I don't believe the mother has any more right to kill her child than to kill the rapist who abused her. Now about the health of the mother, if you saw a murder in process and you shot the would be murderer you are going to prison for murder.

I doubt you'll find a jury in my neck of the woods to convict you for killing a rapist while attempting to stop a rape. Charged? Perhaps. Convicted? Quite unlikely.

Also as a side note if i understand correctly if someone kills a pregnant woman and the baby dies as well the murderer goes to jail for two murders, whether the mother was 13 or not. Even if the baby was deformed he would go for two murders.

Many folks, I among them, think this law is an effort to eventually have abortion outlawed, based on a "prior" law that affords the foetus with legal rights beyond what they would otherwise have.

So the mother killing her child I see as no less of murder.

I can certainly understand this position. My concern is that if abortion were outlawed, only rich folks would be able to get safe abortions, leaving poorer folks to fend for themselves in "back alleys". History tells us that abortions will happen, and I contend we should do what we can to discourage them, while keeping them safe when it is the mother's intent.

[kayky]

Warning: I tend to get a little testy when I see a group of men debating this issue.

Within the first trimester and perhaps a few weeks beyond that, a woman has an absolute right to abortion for any reason. It is an affront to my full personhood to say that I do not have the right to make medical decisions regarding my own body. Can you even imagine making such a suggestion to a man? And unless you have carried a child to term and given birth, you cannot even come close to imagining the physical sacrifices a woman makes to bring a child into the world. (Remember that come Mother's Day.)

Once a fetus becomes viable (able to survive outside the womb), however, I think it should have some degree of legal protection--not the full rights of a born child, mind you. (It is usually at this point that a murderer will be charged in the death of a fetus.) At this point an abortion should only occur if the mother's health is at risk or if there is some abnormality with the fetus itself. This is a decision that must be made by the woman and her doctor. At no point should the government be involved in this decision.

[scottlittlefield17]

It's not a child yet> And, are you aware of the lifetime health complications when a 13 year old girl has when she bears a child?

As for the health risks, look at it this way. If that same thirteen year old girl were to walk down the street and get hit by car and have permanent problems. Could a by stander say "Oh that car driver is going to cause that that girl health problems. Therefore I should shoot him before he accidentally hits her

It is an affront to my full personhood to say that I do not have the right to make medical decisions regarding my own body.

I agree completely and totally. But that IS NOT YOUR BODY. That is a brand new body that is forming. It comes from your body yes but it is not yours. Any more than a nursing baby is part of her body. It is attached to her body and it is getting its only nutrients from her body but it is not your body to make decisions on.

I doubt you'll find a jury in my neck of the woods to convict you for killing a rapist while attempting to stop a rape. Charged? Perhaps. Convicted? Quite unlikely.

I know of a man who came home from work early and caught his wife's boyfriend raping his thirteen year old daughter. Caught him right in the act. The father beat him up and the man died. The father of the girl went to prison for an extended period of time. I don't remember how long but it was a long time. The father was talking about it and said that as soon as the man died all the rights went to the dead man.

[kayky]

It is an affront to my full personhood to say that I do not have the right to make medical decisions regarding my own body.

I agree completely and totally. But that IS NOT YOUR BODY. That is a brand new body that is forming. It comes from your body yes but it is not yours. Any more than a nursing baby is part of her body. It is attached to her body and it is getting its only nutrients from her body but it is not your body to make decisions on.

If it is in my body, then it's my body we're talking about. It is my body that will contend with all the implications of pregnancy and childbirth. So--yes--it is my decision to make.

[Goat]

It's not a child yet> And, are you aware of the lifetime health complications when a 13 year old girl has when she bears a child?

As for the health risks, look at it this way. If that same thirteen year old girl were to walk down the street and get hit by car and have permanent problems. Could a by stander say "Oh that car driver is going to cause that that girl health problems. Therefore I should shoot him before he accidentally hits her

Now, that is a very bad analogy. For one, a fetus is not a person yet. Second of all, the process of pregnancy has very definite effects on girls who are too young, and it's not an 'if/then maybe'.

It is an affront to my full personhood to say that I do not have the right to make medical decisions regarding my own body.

I agree completely and totally. But that IS NOT YOUR BODY. That is a brand new body that is forming. It comes from your body yes but it is not yours. Any more than a nursing baby is part of her body. It is attached to her body and it is getting its only nutrients from her body but it is not your body to make decisions on.

Yet, it IS her body. The fetus feeds off her body, the pregnancy effect her body.
It is using her blood, her oxygen, etc etc. It is not like a nursing baby. And therefore is his Her body to make decisions on.

[JoeyKnothead]

I know of a man who came home from work early and caught his wife's boyfriend raping his thirteen year old daughter. Caught him right in the act. The father beat him up and the man died. The father of the girl went to prison for an extended period of time. I don't remember how long but it was a long time. The father was talking about it and said that as soon as the man died all the rights went to the dead man.

I challenge you to document this story/claim.

I agree it may have happened this way, but I'm willing to bet there were other factors in play.

[scottlittlefield17]

I challenge you to document this story/claim.

I agree it may have happened this way, but I'm willing to bet there were other factors in play.

Sorry, I can't prove the story. I should have put that on my original post. I heard it on the Rusty Humphrey show. The guy called in and was telling the story. It may not be true.

Yet, it IS her body. The fetus feeds off her body, the pregnancy effect her body.
It is using her blood, her oxygen, etc etc. It is not like a nursing baby. And therefore is his Her body to make decisions on.

I disagree with that statement completely. According to my biology book (which mentions nothing about abortion at all in any way) a tapeworm also feeds off of her body, uses her digestion system, ect. So a tapeworm and a unborn baby is on the same level?! I think not. Can a tapeworm be killed? By all means, man because it is not a human being, or from what you say it is not going to become a human being.