This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works
I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.
Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:
For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.
The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.
My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.
The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.
These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.
The abortion issue
Moderator: Moderators
Post #151
Goat wrote:Yet, it IS her body. The fetus feeds off her body, the pregnancy effect her body.
It is using her blood, her oxygen, etc etc. It is not like a nursing baby. And therefore is his Her body to make decisions on.
You are free to disagree, of course. But it is not your decision to make. It is also not the government's decision to make. A woman is not an incubator. She has the right to decide whether she wants to carry a pregnancy to term or not. If she does not have full rights to her own body, she does not have equal protection under the law in the same way that men do.scottlittlefield17 wrote:I disagree with that statement completely. According to my biology book (which mentions nothing about abortion at all in any way) a tapeworm also feeds off of her body, uses her digestion system, ect. So a tapeworm and a unborn baby is on the same level?! I think not. Can a tapeworm be killed? By all means, man because it is not a human being, or from what you say it is not going to become a human being.
-
scottlittlefield17
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 493
- Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:55 pm
- Location: Maine USA
Post #152
Of course it is the governments decision to make because it is murder. It is the killing of a human or at the very least the killing of something that will be a human.
“Life is really simple as far as I’m concerned. There is no luck, you work hard and study things intently. If you do that for long and hard enough you’re successful.�
"The more well versed in a skill that someone is the luckier they seem to be."
"The more well versed in a skill that someone is the luckier they seem to be."
Post #153
There is no doubt that in an abortion something that is alive is killed. But it is not a human being; therefore, it cannot be considered murder. There is no law protecting something that is a potential human being; and until a fetus is viable, it cannot be considered as anything more. So the rights of the woman take priority over the rights of the fetus.scottlittlefield17 wrote:Of course it is the governments decision to make because it is murder. It is the killing of a human or at the very least the killing of something that will be a human.
If I put a human egg that has been fertilized by human sperm in a petri dish, do I have a human being? In such a case we are not even dealing with a potential human being because, without a uterus to grow in, it will never be more than a few divided cells that must be frozen to remain alive. It is the same idea when dealing with an actual pregnancy. The womb is like that petri dish--except it has the ability to grow that embryo into a human being. Just because something has the potential to become a human being does not make it a human being. Stopping a pregnancy is no different than tossing out unwanted frozen embryos.
The question becomes at what point does a fetus become a human being? I would think that the ability to live outside the womb would be a minimum requirement.
Post #154
The problem as I see it is thus:
It's anyone's guess when consciousness enters the body and the fetus goes from a collection of tissues to being a human being. And really, I don't think it's all that important or relevant.
As long as you have women in a state of desperation, abortions will happen. Whether they're legal or not, they will happen. All that making abortions illegal will accomplish is forcing women to resort to unregulated, dirty, dangerous procedures. This all happened before abortion was legalized, and it will happen again if it's made illegal. Septic abortions were at one point in history a major cause of death for women, and a death that nobody deserves.
It's anyone's guess when consciousness enters the body and the fetus goes from a collection of tissues to being a human being. And really, I don't think it's all that important or relevant.
As long as you have women in a state of desperation, abortions will happen. Whether they're legal or not, they will happen. All that making abortions illegal will accomplish is forcing women to resort to unregulated, dirty, dangerous procedures. This all happened before abortion was legalized, and it will happen again if it's made illegal. Septic abortions were at one point in history a major cause of death for women, and a death that nobody deserves.
-
Goat
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24999
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 207 times
Post #155
Right now, it is the governments decision not to make it murder, and leave it between a woman and her doctor.. unrestricted in the first trimester.. and increasing restrictive after 20 week.scottlittlefield17 wrote:Of course it is the governments decision to make because it is murder. It is the killing of a human or at the very least the killing of something that will be a human.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #156
The notion that a human being is a petri dish is the sign of the damage done to humanity by abortion.
The reason why abortion is not to be sanctioned is the same as the death penalty. What is done to the object of the killing is internalized into the identity of those doing the killing. You were once a human being, now you are a Stepford Petri Dish.
No. Women who undertake abortions tunnel through angst, unless somehow, they have already succeeded by other efforts of turning themselves into petri dishes.
I much prefer Obama's qualified pro-choice stance...wherein he takes very seriously the pathos of the issue for women, not first and foremost in terms of matters of their political rights, but rather the meaning of what is actually being done in abortion to their fetus and to themselves...and thus, all that tragedy is all the more reason for us to step up all efforts to prevent unplanned pregnancies.
The reason why abortion is not to be sanctioned is the same as the death penalty. What is done to the object of the killing is internalized into the identity of those doing the killing. You were once a human being, now you are a Stepford Petri Dish.
No. Women who undertake abortions tunnel through angst, unless somehow, they have already succeeded by other efforts of turning themselves into petri dishes.
I much prefer Obama's qualified pro-choice stance...wherein he takes very seriously the pathos of the issue for women, not first and foremost in terms of matters of their political rights, but rather the meaning of what is actually being done in abortion to their fetus and to themselves...and thus, all that tragedy is all the more reason for us to step up all efforts to prevent unplanned pregnancies.
Post #157
Fertility doctors are actually creating human embryos in petri dishes. I wasn't creating an analogy.Jonah wrote:The notion that a human being is a petri dish is the sign of the damage done to humanity by abortion.
The reason why abortion is not to be sanctioned is the same as the death penalty. What is done to the object of the killing is internalized into the identity of those doing the killing. You were once a human being, now you are a Stepford Petri Dish.
No. Women who undertake abortions tunnel through angst, unless somehow, they have already succeeded by other efforts of turning themselves into petri dishes.
I much prefer Obama's qualified pro-choice stance...wherein he takes very seriously the pathos of the issue for women, not first and foremost in terms of matters of their political rights, but rather the meaning of what is actually being done in abortion to their fetus and to themselves...and thus, all that tragedy is all the more reason for us to step up all efforts to prevent unplanned pregnancies.
Post #158
Saying a womb is like a petri dish sounds like an analogy to me.
But, in this matter I do not focus on abstract notions of what a fetus is or isn't. I focus on the whole matter and the essence of humanity in the context of abortion. I am more concerned with what the human beings who struggle with this issue are or are not.
I would assert that the human species would upgrade if it took Obama's qualification not only to heart, but held it as a moral standard to be accountable to.
I heard a very interesting NPR program a couple months ago wherein a moderating pro-choice leader and a moderating pro-life leader were joining forces to see what programmatic efforts can be employed to indeed lower the number of unplanned pregnancies. If through values, education, and concerted programming, we can meaningfully reduce unwanted pregnancies, that DOES a whole lot more than holding up posters of dead fetuses or blah-blah-ing about personal rights and control over ones body. As people, we ought to be better people than that.
But, in this matter I do not focus on abstract notions of what a fetus is or isn't. I focus on the whole matter and the essence of humanity in the context of abortion. I am more concerned with what the human beings who struggle with this issue are or are not.
I would assert that the human species would upgrade if it took Obama's qualification not only to heart, but held it as a moral standard to be accountable to.
I heard a very interesting NPR program a couple months ago wherein a moderating pro-choice leader and a moderating pro-life leader were joining forces to see what programmatic efforts can be employed to indeed lower the number of unplanned pregnancies. If through values, education, and concerted programming, we can meaningfully reduce unwanted pregnancies, that DOES a whole lot more than holding up posters of dead fetuses or blah-blah-ing about personal rights and control over ones body. As people, we ought to be better people than that.
Post #160
You said:
"It is the same idea when dealing with an actual pregnancy. The womb is like that petri dish--except it has the ability to grow that embryo into a human being."
But, your other assertion:
"ending a pregnancy through abortion is no different from throwing away unused embryos in labs."
No different? Completely false. If you are asserting that it is possible for a human being to actually abort a fetus from within her and REALLY regard it as the same as a impersonal lab disposal event, then what is that to say of the present state of humanity?
"It is the same idea when dealing with an actual pregnancy. The womb is like that petri dish--except it has the ability to grow that embryo into a human being."
But, your other assertion:
"ending a pregnancy through abortion is no different from throwing away unused embryos in labs."
No different? Completely false. If you are asserting that it is possible for a human being to actually abort a fetus from within her and REALLY regard it as the same as a impersonal lab disposal event, then what is that to say of the present state of humanity?
