Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause

[john.livingstone@lr]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

[East of Eden]

You cannot be serious. History is not your best subject, I see.

Better than you, if you think Abraham and Moses were Christians. Actually, I was a history minor in college.

Since before Abraham and Moses slaughtered whole cities conflicts between religions have caused more death than old age.

To repeat, atheistic communism has killed 100 times more than 'Christians'. I can see why you'd want to ignore the bloody history of your compadres.

So Pat Robertson is not a Christian?

Pat isn't in politics.

The majority of Christians were not Nazis, but the majority of Nazis were Christian. See how that works? Nazism is not a Christian doctrine, Communism is not an Atheist precept, but Hitler was a lifetime Catholic, Stalin was atheistic(he was anti anything that threatened his power), but Stalin didn't kill in the name of Atheism, Hitler(and the German people)did kill in the name of God.

Wrong, but which of Jesus' commandments did they kill for?

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago " a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people."

Yawn. From when he was saying such things to gain power. You're still avoiding my question: Why did this 'Christian' persecute the church, and why did Einstein (Does he count for an authority?) say the church did the most to oppose Hitler if they were on the same side? I guess if only this man were know what you do, he would have realized that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Sort of puts paid to the revisionist history you are pushing.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Scotracer]

You cannot be serious. History is not your best subject, I see.

Better than you, if you think Abraham and Moses were Christians. Actually, I was a history minor in college.

Since before Abraham and Moses slaughtered whole cities conflicts between religions have caused more death than old age.

To repeat, atheistic communism has killed 100 times more than 'Christians'. I can see why you'd want to ignore the bloody history of your compadres.

So Pat Robertson is not a Christian?

Pat isn't in politics.

The majority of Christians were not Nazis, but the majority of Nazis were Christian. See how that works? Nazism is not a Christian doctrine, Communism is not an Atheist precept, but Hitler was a lifetime Catholic, Stalin was atheistic(he was anti anything that threatened his power), but Stalin didn't kill in the name of Atheism, Hitler(and the German people)did kill in the name of God.

Wrong, but which of Jesus' commandments did they kill for?

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago " a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people."

Yawn. From when he was saying such things to gain power. You're still avoiding my question: Why did this 'Christian' persecute the church, and why did Einstein (Does he count for an authority?) say the church did the most to oppose Hitler if they were on the same side? I guess if only this man were know what you do, he would have realized that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Sort of puts paid to the revisionist history you are pushing.

Pot, meet kettle.

Yeah because Christians are universally known for their agreement on all issues, otherwise we'd see loads of denominations.


Oh wait!


This is a really tired argument and the fact it's descended into "who's killed more" really shows the immaturity of it all. From Hitler's own words it's clear he believed in a higher power that alone rules out the possibility of him being atheist - this coupled with the fact atheists were sent to the death camped seals the deal...but was he Christian? To be frank, I don't care...all religions are basically the same (they try to explain what was not understood and provide a way for those with power to control the weak or stupid). The death toll of a specific religion no more highlights its veracity than the size of the hat it prescribes.

[Abraxas]

Still not relevant. The motivation is not the action.

The motivation is the cause of the action.

Which is all well and good but still aside from the point of Christianity using legislature to make inherently religious concepts legally binding.

No, if I live in a democracy I work to rally votes to change it.

Just as my side does when we lose.

True. But then my side isn't in the business of denying people equal and fair treatment like yours is.

Of course, your argument changed there from "none of your business" to "out of luck".

Both can be true.

And yet neither are.

Actually the strawman would be implying I said they did add them up. I just said that on the whole Christians are vastly wealthier than other religious or non-religious groups and so they have more to give. Something you did not dispute.

Are you saying Christians are wealthier than non-Christians, including Jews?

At the highest levels? Absolutely. Look at the list of billionaires and start counting off religions, Christianity comes in first, Judaism second. Look at the wealthiest countries and see what their dominant religion is, Christianity. I am having trouble understanding how you can deny that Christianity is by a wide margin the richest and most powerful religion in the world at present.

When I have the opportunity, I will have to examine their methodology more closely. In particular, what counts as a donation, what counts as volunteer work, and what counts as religious given the specious claim that "religious people are 33% of the population".

Fair enough, that was a lot of information.

Having gone over it, a lot of it is what I suspected, not the least of which is the author already had a chosen outcome in mind when he wrote it. Lies, damned lies, and statistics and all that.

Two observations, three critiques.

Firstly, as expected in those numbers it includes things like time spent volunteering for or donating to the church. I would not count this as charity.
Secondly, those numbers apply to the US only, not worldwide.

Firstly, the demographics measured and compared are not even. As the article itself notes, secular attitudes are more prevalent in younger demographics which have fewer financial resources available. Though lip service is paid to trying to even that out using reductive techniques, they are inadequate to the task.

Secondly, the article does absolutely nothing to address the hidden variables involved, such as the number of social projects organized by or through the Church could raise awareness on the part of the participants in the study that may not exist for the secular participants. It may only speak to how well informed they are, not their generosity.

Finally, the definition of religious for the study is artificially narrow. I noticed the 33% number looked low and that is because they took only those who attend church weekly as being religious and including proclaimed Christians who do not attend church often enough with the secular group.

Would be interesting to see the study redone by someone not trying to push an agenda to get some numbers but this study just doesn't cut it.

To repeat, atheistic communism has killed 100 times more than 'Christians'. I can see why you'd want to ignore the bloody history of your compadres.

Still clinging to the disreputable, dishonest, and debunked Black Book of Communism numbers I see.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

To repeat, atheistic communism has killed 100 times more than 'Christians'.

Lie all you like, you're not fooling anyone.

Better than you, if you think Abraham and Moses were Christians.

Let me parse the sentence I posted...

Since before Abraham and Moses slaughtered whole cities conflicts between religions have caused more death than old age.

Now, where in that sentence did I say they were Christians? And don't Christians claim the Old Testament to be innerrent and divinely inspired? They sure do quote from it a lot.

To repeat, atheistic communism has killed 100 times more than 'Christians'.

Not true(ridiculously so), but beside the point. Communists don't kill because they are atheist, they kill because they are Communists(actually dictatorships). Unfortunaately for your argument, Nazis DID kill because of religious differences, with varying degrees of cooperation from the religions of the majority(Lutheran, Catholic).

So Pat Robertson is not a Christian?

Pat isn't in politics.

So you are too young to remember Pat's run for president? And he doesn't use his network to promote his political agenda? To influence his sheep? Motivate the troops(Christian Soldiers)?

From when he was saying such things to gain power.

Like Pat? Lie to yourself all you like, it won't change history.

Hitler was a Christian just like Pat is now, just a lot more successful.

Sort of puts paid to the revisionist history you are pushing..

Pot, meet kettle.

Sorry, you are the one trying to deny the responsibility Christians in Germany had for the Holocaust(not to mention the 21 million other deaths caused by WW2). The horrors of that war were not carried out by one man, or even just everyone in the government. There were MILLIONS of good Christians involved in the murders of over 6 million Jews for no other reason than that they were Jews. All the soldiers, prison guards and townspeople who looked the other way were also Christians. Germany was a "Christian Nation(unlike America).

Hitler(and the German people)did kill in the name of God.

Wrong, but which of Jesus' commandments did they kill for?

I don't know, which one was the Pope killing for during the Inquisition? The Crusades? Which did the Conquestadors kill for when they slaughtered a whole civilization to save their souls? I learned a long time ago not to expect consistency or reason from theists, especially theists that gain power(just look at George Bush).

You're still avoiding my question: Why did this 'Christian' persecute the church, and why did Einstein (Does he count for an authority?) say the church did the most to oppose Hitler if they were on the same side? I guess if only this man were know what you do, he would have realized that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

He persiquted anyone who threatened his power, and not all German Christians(or churches)went along with the evil of the majority. Einstein, as a non practicing(and unbelieving)Jew had ample reason to hate the church, antisemitism was preached in many churches just like churches in the South preached continued slavery before the Civil War. But just like there was an underground getting slaves into free states, there were some brave people who helped the Jews. But in both cases they were by far in the minority.

Grumpy

[anotheratheisthere]

I'm calling BS on that.

Millions of people have been killed or tortured by Christians becuase of their religion or lack thereof (inquisition, crusades, witch burning, etc)

Passages in the Bible have been used to justify slavery and the genocide of native Americans.

Just these last few month right wing evangelical politicians supported legislation in Uganda that would make homosexuality a crime punishable by death.

Anti condom propaganda and failed "abstinence only" policies have caused teen pregnancy, STDs and sodomy to skyrocket in middle America.

Evangelicals' intrusion in science has coused our ranking in education to fall even lower.

So please spare me with your kumbaya notion of Christianity. I rarely hear a positive message from a Christian. Usually it is either believe in my God or you're going to hell, or believe in my God or I will kill you, rape your wife and take your children as slaves (Exodus 21:7-11, Judges 5:30 Zechariah 14:1-2 Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, etc).

You wrote "the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs". Are you kidding me? How about the FIRST COMMANDEMENT? How about the notion that if you don't believe in Jesus you're going to hell? Hello?

[East of Eden]

I'm calling BS on that.

Millions of people have been killed or tortured by Christians becuase of their religion or lack thereof (inquisition, crusades, witch burning, etc)

Where do you get your numbers? There were 20,000 killed over several centuries because of the Inquisition. Stalin killed twice that many a WEEK at one point. The Salem witch trials killed 19 people.

Passages in the Bible have been used to justify slavery

Slavery has been around as long as man, what is unique about Christianity is it ended it.

and the genocide of native Americans.

I live in New Mexico, they're a lot around. You're referring to a clash of civilizations. I'm glad our side one.

Just these last few month right wing evangelical politicians supported legislation in Uganda that would make homosexuality a crime punishable by death.

Who?

Anti condom propaganda and failed "abstinence only" policies have caused teen pregnancy, STDs and sodomy to skyrocket in middle America.

Teen pregnancy is caused by people disregarding God's standards.

So please spare me with your kumbaya notion of Christianity. I rarely hear a positive message from a Christian. Usually it is either believe in my God or you're going to hell,

Salvation is a very positive message.

or believe in my God or I will kill you, rape your wife and take your children as slaves

What Christians are saying this? You must be thinking of Islam.

You wrote "the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs".

Wasn't me.

Are you kidding me? How about the FIRST COMMANDEMENT? How about the notion that if you don't believe in Jesus you're going to hell? Hello?

Witness the same reaction on this forum to that statement of fact as the ones Jesus got when He said it, at least among those who've chosen to reject God.

[East of Eden]

Lie all you like, you're not fooling anyone.

Back at you.

Let me parse the sentence I posted...

Since before Abraham and Moses slaughtered whole cities conflicts between religions have caused more death than old age.

Now, where in that sentence did I say they were Christians?

When you responded to my saying the following by talking about OT figures: 'Atheism killed people 100 times over in one century compared to the entire history of Christianity.'

And don't Christians claim the Old Testament to be innerrent and divinely inspired?

See the Old vs. the New Covenants.

Not true(ridiculously so), but beside the point. Communists don't kill because they are atheist, they kill because they are Communists(actually dictatorships). Unfortunaately for your argument, Nazis DID kill because of religious differences, with varying degrees of cooperation from the religions of the majority(Lutheran, Catholic).

Wrong again, it was the church that did the most to stop Hitler, at least according to Einstein.

So you are too young to remember Pat's run for president?

No, did you have a problem with it?

And he doesn't use his network to promote his political agenda? To influence his sheep? Motivate the troops(Christian Soldiers)?

Funny how your side only gripes about the Christian right, never the Christian left. Makes you wonder.

Hitler was a Christian just like Pat is now, just a lot more successful.

And Stalin was an atheist just like you. See how stupid that is?

Sorry, you are the one trying to deny the responsibility Christians in Germany had for the Holocaust(not to mention the 21 million other deaths caused by WW2). The horrors of that war were not carried out by one man, or even just everyone in the government.

According to your twisted logic, had Jesus never lived, there probably wouldn't have been a WWII. Tell me, what drives such hate?

I don't know, which one was the Pope killing for during the Inquisition?

You don't judge a philosophy by its misuse. The Inquisition was a direct disregard of Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares, where He said don't try to separate them, lest you harm the wheat. God will do the separating at the Last Judgement.

The Crusades?

A counteroffensive against Muslim expansion. If Islam had been successful in its war against the West, you wouldn't be free to state your opinions.

iWhich did the Conquestadors kill for when they slaughtered a whole civilization to save their souls?

Another clash of civilizations. I'm glad the Spanish ended the Aztec death-cult's practice of killing up to 250,000 human sacrifices a year. One reason the Spanish succeeded was the help they got from other Indian tribes who hated the Aztecs for obvious reasons.

I learned a long time ago not to expect consistency or reason from theists, especially theists that gain power(just look at George Bush).

Your bigotry is noted. Am I free to have the same attitude about any atheist that may run for office?

[anotheratheisthere]

The Salem witch trials killed 19 people.

Why do you hate God? Why do you dishonor the Holy Father, and why do you spit in the fact of his Son? Why do you urinate on the wounds that were inflicted on Him on the Holy cross? Why, why why do you condemn yourself to the eternity of the burning pits of hell just for the sake of winning a stupid debate?

BEARING FALSE WITNESS IS A SIN, YOU IDIOT!

It's an UNDISPUTABLE fact that hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake between the 13th and 16th century.

To say that only 19 women were burned alive is to lie before the Holy Father. You are breaking one of the 10 commandements and you're going to hell.

Jesus died for you, you ungrateful faithless half-person. Go on your knees right now and beg Our Lord for forgiveness and never EVER lie again.

And to the Demon that has possessed your soul I only say this: LEAVE THIS MAN'S BODY. THE LORD COMPELLS YOU! THE MAN WHO'S BODY YOU ARE POSSESSING IS NOT A LIAR. YOU ARE THE LIAR, DEMON. HE DOESN'T DESERVE ETERNAL DAMNATION. LEAVE HIS BODY FOREVER AND LET THE LORD ALMIGHTY GIVE HIM THE STRENGTH TO NEVER EVER LIE AGAIN ABOUT THE NUMBER OF WITCHES THAT WERE KILLED BY CHRISTIANS. IN THE NAME OF THE HOLY FATHER, LEAVE THIS BODY RIGHT NOW AND NEVER COME BACK.

How do you feel East of Eden, do you feel reborn? Do you now feel that, with the help of God's infinite love and strength, you'll be able to resist the devil's temptation to break the 9th commandment?

Go in peace, and do not sin again.

You're welcome.

[East of Eden]

The Salem witch trials killed 19 people.

Why do you hate God? Why do you dishonor the Holy Father, and why do you spit in the fact of his Son? Why do you urinate on the wounds that were inflicted on Him on the Holy cross? Why, why why do you condemn yourself to the eternity of the burning pits of hell just for the sake of winning a stupid debate?

BEARING FALSE WITNESS IS A SIN, YOU IDIOT!

It's an UNDISPUTABLE fact that hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake between the 13th and 16th century.

To say that only 19 women were burned alive is to lie before the Holy Father. You are breaking one of the 10 commandements and you're going to hell.

Jesus died for you, you ungrateful faithless half-person. Go on your knees right now and beg Our Lord for forgiveness and never EVER lie again.

And to the Demon that has possessed your soul I only say this: LEAVE THIS MAN'S BODY. THE LORD COMPELLS YOU! THE MAN WHO'S BODY YOU ARE POSSESSING IS NOT A LIAR. YOU ARE THE LIAR, DEMON. HE DOESN'T DESERVE ETERNAL DAMNATION. LEAVE HIS BODY FOREVER AND LET THE LORD ALMIGHTY GIVE HIM THE STRENGTH TO NEVER EVER LIE AGAIN ABOUT THE NUMBER OF WITCHES THAT WERE KILLED BY CHRISTIANS. IN THE NAME OF THE HOLY FATHER, LEAVE THIS BODY RIGHT NOW AND NEVER COME BACK.

How do you feel East of Eden, do you feel reborn? Do you now feel that, with the help of God's infinite love and strength, you'll be able to resist the devil's temptation to break the 9th commandment?

Go in peace, and do not sin again.

You're welcome.

You are mentally ill.

[anotheratheisthere]

You are mentally ill.

I'm sorry that you completely lost your faith in our Savior, and that you think that believing in the 10 commandments is a mental illness. You are so arrogant in your atheism.

I will try to help you regain your faith.

It's very simple: Saying that only 19 women were burned alive by Christians is a lie. Lying is against the Bible, the word of our Lord Almighty.

You lied, so you are going to hell, unless you repent, accept Jesus as your Saviour, and stop lying.

Please, try to accept the Lord. He is the Prince of Peace, and placing your life in his hands will bring joy to your heart. He died on the cross for you, and if you continue sinning, then he died for nothing.

Please don't lie, in the name of Our Lord, please don't lie.

Do you accept Jesus, yes or no?