Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause

[john.livingstone@lr]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

[McCulloch]

Moderator Warning

You are mentally ill.

BEARING FALSE WITNESS IS A SIN, YOU IDIOT!
[...]
Jesus died for you, you ungrateful faithless half-person.

I will try to help you regain your faith.

It's very simple: Saying that only 19 women were burned alive by Christians is a lie. Lying is against the Bible, the word of our Lord Almighty.

You lied, so you are going to hell, unless you repent, accept Jesus as your Saviour, and stop lying.

Please, try to accept the Lord. He is the Prince of Peace, and placing your life in his hands will bring joy to your heart. He died on the cross for you, and if you continue sinning, then he died for nothing.

Please don't lie, in the name of Our Lord, please don't lie.

Do you accept Jesus, yes or no?

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[anotheratheisthere]

Dear East of Eden,

I would like to apologize if I was in any way offensive in our last exchange.

All I wanted to say is that as you know hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake by Christians. Yet you were somehow compelled by some nefarious force to say that only 19 women were killed.

What you did is clearly to bear false witness. To break the 9th commandment is a capital sin, and you will spend the rest of eternity in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for your sin and never sin again!

I honestly believe that you are possessed by a demon, because I know from previous exchanges that you are a devout Christian, and there is no way that you would willfully go against the word of God.

I know that defeating the lies of Satan can be very hard, so I just wanted to help.

If there is anything I can do to help you redeem your soul from the clutches of the Morning Star, please let me know. If there is anything I can do to help you restore your good name and honor, please let me know. I will do what I can to help you find the strength to admit that you were wrong.

God Bless you.

[otseng]

Dear East of Eden,

I would like to apologize if I was in any way offensive in our last exchange.

All I wanted to say is that as you know hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake by Christians. Yet you were somehow compelled by some nefarious force to say that only 19 women were killed.

What you did is clearly to bear false witness. To break the 9th commandment is a capital sin, and you will spend the rest of eternity in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for your sin and never sin again!

I honestly believe that you are possessed by a demon, because I know from previous exchanges that you are a devout Christian, and there is no way that you would willfully go against the word of God.

I know that defeating the lies of Satan can be very hard, so I just wanted to help.

If there is anything I can do to help you redeem your soul from the clutches of the Morning Star, please let me know. If there is anything I can do to help you restore your good name and honor, please let me know. I will do what I can to help you find the strength to admit that you were wrong.

God Bless you.

Moderator formal warning.

The sarcasm meter is off the charts here. Sarcasm and indirect attacks are not appropriate for a respectful and civil discourse. Note that any more rule violations will result in disciplinary action.

[anotheratheisthere]

Dear East of Eden,

I would like to apologize if I was in any way offensive in our last exchange.

All I wanted to say is that as you know hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake by Christians. Yet you were somehow compelled by some nefarious force to say that only 19 women were killed.

What you did is clearly to bear false witness. To break the 9th commandment is a capital sin, and you will spend the rest of eternity in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for your sin and never sin again!

I honestly believe that you are possessed by a demon, because I know from previous exchanges that you are a devout Christian, and there is no way that you would willfully go against the word of God.

I know that defeating the lies of Satan can be very hard, so I just wanted to help.

If there is anything I can do to help you redeem your soul from the clutches of the Morning Star, please let me know. If there is anything I can do to help you restore your good name and honor, please let me know. I will do what I can to help you find the strength to admit that you were wrong.

God Bless you.

Moderator formal warning.

The sarcasm meter is off the charts here. Sarcasm and indirect attacks are not appropriate for a respectful and civil discourse. Note that any more rule violations will result in disciplinary action.

I am NOT being sarcastic!

I truly believe that lying is wrong.

It's an irrefutable fact that thousands of women were burned alive by christians. Therefore saying that only 19 died, while knowing that thousands died, is a lie.

East of Eden is lying, and I'm trying to make him change his ways, which is my duty as a fellow human being.

How does the fact that I choose to use terminology which I think he'll understand best, in any way diminish the value of my attempt to try to make him understand that lying is wrong?

I don't understand, where is the indirect attack? Lying is wrong and I'm trying to make him understand it.

If I were talking to a spanish person, I'd try to get across to him by speaking my rudimentary spanish. If I were talking to a 4 year old, I'd try to use simple words. If I were talking to a chinese person, I'd have to resort to sign language, I guess. If I were talking to a scientist, I'd try to be pragmatic and logical in talking to him. Since I'm talking to a Christian, I try to use terminology that will resonate with him, without being offensive.

I do concede I was too harsh at first, but I apologized for that. Sincerely.

I am NOT sarcastic. I truly believe that lying is wrong and I'm truly trying to help.

[micatala]

Dear East of Eden,

I would like to apologize if I was in any way offensive in our last exchange.

All I wanted to say is that as you know hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake by Christians. Yet you were somehow compelled by some nefarious force to say that only 19 women were killed.

What you did is clearly to bear false witness. To break the 9th commandment is a capital sin, and you will spend the rest of eternity in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for your sin and never sin again!

I honestly believe that you are possessed by a demon, because I know from previous exchanges that you are a devout Christian, and there is no way that you would willfully go against the word of God.

I know that defeating the lies of Satan can be very hard, so I just wanted to help.

If there is anything I can do to help you redeem your soul from the clutches of the Morning Star, please let me know. If there is anything I can do to help you restore your good name and honor, please let me know. I will do what I can to help you find the strength to admit that you were wrong.

God Bless you.

Moderator formal warning.

The sarcasm meter is off the charts here. Sarcasm and indirect attacks are not appropriate for a respectful and civil discourse. Note that any more rule violations will result in disciplinary action.

I am NOT being sarcastic!

I truly believe that lying is wrong.

It's an irrefutable fact that thousands of women were burned alive by christians. Therefore saying that only 19 died, while knowing that thousands died, is a lie.

I will just point out the East of Eden said 19 women died at the Salem witch trials.

By leaving out this crucial qualifier, are you not yourself being dishonest?

[/i]

[anotheratheisthere]

Dear East of Eden,

I would like to apologize if I was in any way offensive in our last exchange.

All I wanted to say is that as you know hundreds of thousands of women were burned at the stake by Christians. Yet you were somehow compelled by some nefarious force to say that only 19 women were killed.

What you did is clearly to bear false witness. To break the 9th commandment is a capital sin, and you will spend the rest of eternity in hell unless you ask for forgiveness for your sin and never sin again!

I honestly believe that you are possessed by a demon, because I know from previous exchanges that you are a devout Christian, and there is no way that you would willfully go against the word of God.

I know that defeating the lies of Satan can be very hard, so I just wanted to help.

If there is anything I can do to help you redeem your soul from the clutches of the Morning Star, please let me know. If there is anything I can do to help you restore your good name and honor, please let me know. I will do what I can to help you find the strength to admit that you were wrong.

God Bless you.

Moderator formal warning.

The sarcasm meter is off the charts here. Sarcasm and indirect attacks are not appropriate for a respectful and civil discourse. Note that any more rule violations will result in disciplinary action.

I am NOT being sarcastic!

I truly believe that lying is wrong.

It's an irrefutable fact that thousands of women were burned alive by christians. Therefore saying that only 19 died, while knowing that thousands died, is a lie.

I will just point out the East of Eden said 19 women died at the Salem witch trials.

By leaving out this crucial qualifier, are you not yourself being dishonest?

[/i]

No, because his mentioning of the 19 women at the witch trial was in response to my mention of the broader phenomenon of witch burning in general, which undisputedly cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

So exactly what you said about me is true about him.

It's as if I said "11,000 people are shot to death in America each year", and you responded by saying "What are you talking about, only 2000 get shot with machine guns each year".

Your statement would be deceptive in nature, because while it may be true that only 2000 are killed with MACHINE GUNS, the total number of gun deaths is indeed 11,000/year, and that is the scope of the initial statement.

Combine the fact that the statement about "2000 machine gun deaths" is accompanied by a denial of the accuracy of my original statement, and what you have is a hypocrite using an accurate number (19 witches burned in Salem - or 2000 machine gun deaths) to make a false statement with false implications, designed for the purpose of confusing the casual reader such as yourself.

Bearing false witness is what this person is doing.

If you believe in the Bible, then the person in question broke the 9th Commandment, hence my line of argument, and my offer to help him redeem his faith and his honor.

Got it?

[cnorman18]

Just for the record, the number of witches burned at the stake in Salem was zero. Witch-burning was popular in Britain and on the Continent, but it never caught on in the Colonies. The Salem "witches" were hanged.

I think it's wonderful that you would set your own atheist beliefs aside and take up preaching the Gospel for the sake of this man's soul, in order to teach a stunningly ignorant and amoral man something that most people know - that lying is morally wrong. How remarkable that he did not already know that.

It does seem odd, though, that you could preach so passionately in favor of beliefs that you have mocked and sneered at elsewhere; but then you have the right to change your beliefs whenever you like. I don't agree with your newfound fundamentalism, but you certainly have a right to believe in that way if you wish. Congratulations on having the courage to let everyone know that you now understand that you were wrong and now acknowledge that repenting of falsehoods and lies, and then believing in Jesus, is the only way to avoid Hell.

Very strange, but it's a free country.

I mean, you have said straight out that you weren't being sarcastic. Surely you couldn't be PRETENDING to believe all the stuff you've been posting; that would be DISHONEST, and of course that is the subject you are lecturing on tonight.

[anotheratheisthere]

Just for the record, the number of witches burned at the stake in Salem was zero. Witch-burning was popular in Britain and on the Continent, but it never caught on in the Colonies. The Salem "witches" were hanged.

I think it's wonderful that you would set your own atheist beliefs aside and take up preaching the Gospel for the sake of this man's soul, in order to teach a stunningly ignorant and amoral man something that most people know - that lying is morally wrong. How remarkable that he did not already know that.

It does seem odd, though, that you could preach so passionately in favor of beliefs that you have mocked and sneered at elsewhere; but then you have the right to change your beliefs whenever you like. I don't agree with your newfound fundamentalism, but you certainly have a right to believe in that way if you wish. Congratulations on having the courage to let everyone know that you now understand that you were wrong and now acknowledge that repenting of falsehoods and lies, and then believing in Jesus, is the only way to avoid Hell.

Very strange, but it's a free country.

I mean, you have said straight out that you weren't being sarcastic. Surely you couldn't be PRETENDING to believe all the stuff you've been posting; that would be DISHONEST, and of course that is the subject you are lecturing on tonight.

I have nothing to say to you until you either correct me on the statistical data I presented regarding incarceration, murder and other issues in America, or you apologize to me for calling me an extremist fanatic for simply listing the statistical data from reputable sources.

I don't talk to cowards.

Regarding East of Eden, I will now state, not for the sake of debating cnorman, but for the sake of defending myself in the eyes of anybody else who may read our exchange, that East deserved a taste of his own medicine.

There is no doubt that he was dishonest and intentionally misleading in replying that "only 19 witches were killed in Salem" to my statement that hundreds of thousands were killed.

That he could so easily break the Bible's 9th commandment astounds me.

There is no dispute that lying is morally wrong , and that lie is what he did. Obviously I don't believe in invisible men in the sky, but if using Biblical language helps get the moral concept across to a Christian, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Using the Invisible Man in the Sky to get a Christian to behave is just as innocent an endeavor as using Santa to get a child to behave. In dealing with simple minds, you have to use simple language.

[cnorman18]

Just for the record, the number of witches burned at the stake in Salem was zero. Witch-burning was popular in Britain and on the Continent, but it never caught on in the Colonies. The Salem "witches" were hanged.

I think it's wonderful that you would set your own atheist beliefs aside and take up preaching the Gospel for the sake of this man's soul, in order to teach a stunningly ignorant and amoral man something that most people know - that lying is morally wrong. How remarkable that he did not already know that.

It does seem odd, though, that you could preach so passionately in favor of beliefs that you have mocked and sneered at elsewhere; but then you have the right to change your beliefs whenever you like. I don't agree with your newfound fundamentalism, but you certainly have a right to believe in that way if you wish. Congratulations on having the courage to let everyone know that you now understand that you were wrong and now acknowledge that repenting of falsehoods and lies, and then believing in Jesus, is the only way to avoid Hell.

Very strange, but it's a free country.

I mean, you have said straight out that you weren't being sarcastic. Surely you couldn't be PRETENDING to believe all the stuff you've been posting; that would be DISHONEST, and of course that is the subject you are lecturing on tonight.

I have nothing to say to you until you either correct me on the statistical data I presented regarding incarceration, murder and other issues in America, or you apologize to me for calling me an extremist fanatic for simply listing the statistical data from reputable sources.

I don't talk to cowards.

Baloney. I have posted this three times and also told you by PM:

As you knew perfectly well when you first posted this, I do not question your DATA, but your take on its SIGNIFICANCE. Pretending that I am calling various government and international agencies names, as you have alleged multiple times, is both disingenuous and intentionally dishonest, if you're going to get all worked up about "dishonesty."

On calling you an "extremist," I have also asked this several times without an answer: Do you or do you not acknowledge that your position is at the extreme left of the American political spectrum? If not, why on Earth not? If so - what's the problem? If I were as convinced as you that the USA was the most evil entity on the face of the Earth, which seems to be what you conclude from your statistics, I'd be PROUD to be called an "extremist."

Regarding East of Eden, I will now state, not for the sake of debating cnorman, but for the sake of defending myself in the eyes of anybody else who may read our exchange, that East deserved a taste of his own medicine.

There is no doubt that he was dishonest and intentionally misleading in replying that "only 19 witches were killed in Salem" to my statement that hundreds of thousands were killed.

That he could so easily break the Bible's 9th commandment astounds me.

There is no dispute that lying is morally wrong , and that lie is what he did. Obviously I don't believe in invisible men in the sky, but if using Biblical language helps get the moral concept across to a Christian, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Using the Invisible Man in the Sky to get a Christian to behave is just as innocent an endeavor as using Santa to get a child to behave. In dealing with simple minds, you have to use simple language.

More baloney. You were amusing yourself with intentional mocking and baiting, and now you're trying to find a plausible excuse for it. You are here and now admitting, by the way, that your posts WERE sarcastic, and therefore that you lied - to an administrator! - when you denied that they were.

By the way, alleging dishonesty where the only real issue is disagreement with your views is dishonesty, too.

Keep it up. You won't be here long if you continue this intentionally provocative and insulting, not to mention repeatedly dishonest, behavior.

[anotheratheisthere]

Baloney. I have posted this three times and also told you by PM:

As you knew perfectly well when you first posted this, I do not question your DATA, but your take on its SIGNIFICANCE.

Baloney to your baloney!

First, you didn't write me a PM until a few days ago and this whole thing happened way before then.

Second, I said that we are the largest exporters of guns to third world countries and you replied quote "that's not true". You said some bs about AK-47s and didn't shut up about that until I showed you a map of all the places in America where Ak-47s are manufactured. So that you contest my opinion of the data's significance, and not the data itself is a bold lie. You tried to contest the data, and it wasn't until I proved you wrong by presenting raw facts that you mysteriously vanished.

On calling you an "extremist," I have also asked this several times without an answer: Do you or do you not acknowledge that your position is at the extreme left of the American political spectrum? If not, why on Earth not?

Because I don't have a position. All I am doing is listing data issued by government and UN agencies. That is not a position. That's not an opinion. It's a list of facts. Listing facts cannot be extremist. It's the FACTS that are extreme, not my mere act of writing them down.

If I were as convinced as you that the USA was the most evil entity on the face of the Earth, which seems to be what you conclude from your statistics, I'd be PROUD to be called an "extremist."

I am not convinced the US is the most evil entity in the world. I think there are some wonderful things going on in America. All I am saying is that reputable impartial sources claim that the US is the entity that killed the most civilians in the world in the last 50 years, that it's the country that exports the most hand weapons to 3rd world counties, it's the industrial country where citizens kill each other at the fastest rate, and it's the country where most citizens are deprived of their freedom. These are facts. Is your position that if looking at this data I say "wow, clearly something is wrong" then I'm an extremist?

I don't deny all the great things about our country. The number of Nobel Award recipients, the great Universities, the amazing social movements it started, the scientific cutting edge, the cultural and social cutting edge (at least in NYC, Alabama not so much), etc. Those are things that are great about America. In fact if you tried to deny the data about the good things about America, I'd debate you as forcefully as I did when you denied weapon exportation rates and other irrefutable facts.

More baloney. You were amusing yourself with intentional mocking and baiting, and now you're trying to find a plausible excuse for it. You are here and now admitting, by the way, that your posts WERE sarcastic, and therefore that you lied - to an administrator! - when you denied that they were.

By the way, alleging dishonesty where the only real issue is disagreement with your views is dishonesty, too.

Keep it up. You won't be here long if you continue this intentionally provocative and insulting, not to mention repeatedly dishonest, behavior.

All I did in talking to East of Eden is state something I completely believe (that lying is wrong), using language that I think he would understand. He believes that an invisible man in the sky created the world in 6 days 6000 years ago! You can't expect me to use logic and nuanced concepts when trying to get across to him.

I said "hundreds of thousands of women were burned alive by Christians". And he responded "That's not true, only 19 were killed in Salem".

That is about as simplistic an attempt to mislead and lie using a non-sequitur as this exchange would be:

Statement "The US is the largest gun exporter in the world"

Response "That's not true, Russia manufactures Ak-47"

It's about as simplistic an attempt to mislead and lie using a non-sequitur as this exchange would be:

Statement: "1+1 is 2"

Response: "That's not true, my favorite color is blue".

I can see why you returned from your exile for the opportunity to defend East of Eden. You clearly think alike.