Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause

[john.livingstone@lr]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

[East of Eden]

It's really irrelevant, the question here is what Hitler believed, not what someone else said about his beliefs. In Hitler's own writings, both public and private, you cannot find anything that suggests he was anti-Christian.

And by his actions (persecution of Christians) and private speech he was clearly not a Christian.

I've never researched Capone, but so far as I'm aware, he never spoke out that his religious beliefs were responsible for his actions.

He wasn't trying to gain political power in a country where many were Christian.

Hitler did. Likewise, Christians love to bring up Stalin and Pol Pot and claim atheism causes mass murder, but neither of them, again to my knowledge, ever stated that atheism was the impetus for their actions.

Evidence of Stalin's mass murder steming from his atheism from Wikipedia:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion[75]

Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937"1938.[76]

Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."

And still do to this day, in fact. You have to remember that the KKK is a Christian organization and even looking at racist splinter groups, virtually all of them espouse a fundamentalist Christian view.

Are you threatened by the KKK? I've never met one, outside of a history book.

It's a simple fact that the Bible teaches that slavery is fine. It tells you who you can take as a slave, how much you should pay, how they should be beaten, even how to trick a Jew into becoming a slave forever.

From end to end, the Bible tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, I'm not surprised that the KKK and similar groups have seized on this idea.

The New Testament condemns slave-trading. Those that ended the practice were Christians motivated by their beliefs in the 1800s, not free-thinkers.

Religion has a demonstrable negative correlation with societal health.

http://www.vibrantlife.com/vl/article-81.html

Note:

"People of faith consistently exhibit higher levels of mental, physical, and relational wellness according to a study by research psychiatrist Daniel Larson, funded by the NIHR. In the area of psychiatry, 92 percent of the findings showed that religious commitment produced a beneficial effect and that religious people lived longer than nonreligious. He also found that smokers who were not religious were "seven times more likely to have elevated blood pressure than those who said religion was important."

A study of elderly women hospitalized with broken hips, reported in a 1990 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, found that those who were religiously committed were less depressed, had shorter hospital stays, and could walk farther at the time of discharge than those who were not religious."

The fact is, atheists and theists both have the same source of morality, atheists are just honest about it.

Huh?

[McCulloch]

And by his actions (persecution of Christians) and private speech he was clearly not a Christian.

Catholics persecuted non-catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Lutherans persecuted Anabaptist Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Calvinists persecuted Catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians ...

[FinalEnigma]

Evidence of Stalin's mass murder steming from his atheism from Wikipedia:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion[75]

There's a problem with this. you very own quote says, basically, that Stalin was anti-religion because it got in the way of his communism. He wasn't doing all this on atheistic principles, he was using atheism as a tool for his communism.

if you want to make the claim that using atheism to fight against something he does not like means its atheism's fault then... suddenly Christianity is responsible for Hitler again, even by your own comments, because he use(or abused) Christianity to further his own ends. That is EXACTLY what your quote states Stalin to have done with atheism.

And still do to this day, in fact. You have to remember that the KKK is a Christian organization and even looking at racist splinter groups, virtually all of them espouse a fundamentalist Christian view.

Are you threatened by the KKK? I've never met one, outside of a history book.

My mother was literally threatened by the KKK.
and I'm Caucasian, btw.

Religion has a demonstrable negative correlation with societal health.

http://www.vibrantlife.com/vl/article-81.html

Note:

"People of faith consistently exhibit higher levels of mental, physical, and relational wellness according to a study by research psychiatrist Daniel Larson, funded by the NIHR. In the area of psychiatry, 92 percent of the findings showed that religious commitment produced a beneficial effect and that religious people lived longer than nonreligious. He also found that smokers who were not religious were "seven times more likely to have elevated blood pressure than those who said religion was important."

A study of elderly women hospitalized with broken hips, reported in a 1990 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, found that those who were religiously committed were less depressed, had shorter hospital stays, and could walk farther at the time of discharge than those who were not religious."

That quote does not help you. he said societal health, not personal health.

[Cathar1950]

And by his actions (persecution of Christians) and private speech he was clearly not a Christian.

Catholics persecuted non-catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Lutherans persecuted Anabaptist Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Calvinists persecuted Catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians ...

So it seems "True Christians" persecute false Christians.
"True Christians" being Orthodox Christians of course.

[East of Eden]

And by his actions (persecution of Christians) and private speech he was clearly not a Christian.

Catholics persecuted non-catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Lutherans persecuted Anabaptist Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians. Calvinists persecuted Catholic Christians therefore they were clearly not Christians ...

....you missed the 'and private speech part'.

[East of Eden]

Evidence of Stalin's mass murder steming from his atheism from Wikipedia:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion[75]

There's a problem with this. you very own quote says, basically, that Stalin was anti-religion because it got in the way of his communism. He wasn't doing all this on atheistic principles, he was using atheism as a tool for his communism.

if you want to make the claim that using atheism to fight against something he does not like means its atheism's fault then... suddenly Christianity is responsible for Hitler again, even by your own comments, because he use(or abused) Christianity to further his own ends. That is EXACTLY what your quote states Stalin to have done with atheism.

And still do to this day, in fact. You have to remember that the KKK is a Christian organization and even looking at racist splinter groups, virtually all of them espouse a fundamentalist Christian view.

Are you threatened by the KKK? I've never met one, outside of a history book.

My mother was literally threatened by the KKK.
and I'm Caucasian, btw.

Religion has a demonstrable negative correlation with societal health.

http://www.vibrantlife.com/vl/article-81.html

Note:

"People of faith consistently exhibit higher levels of mental, physical, and relational wellness according to a study by research psychiatrist Daniel Larson, funded by the NIHR. In the area of psychiatry, 92 percent of the findings showed that religious commitment produced a beneficial effect and that religious people lived longer than nonreligious. He also found that smokers who were not religious were "seven times more likely to have elevated blood pressure than those who said religion was important."

A study of elderly women hospitalized with broken hips, reported in a 1990 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, found that those who were religiously committed were less depressed, had shorter hospital stays, and could walk farther at the time of discharge than those who were not religious."

That quote does not help you. he said societal health, not personal health.

Why is it during the health care debate we are told our health is a societal issue?

[FinalEnigma]

Evidence of Stalin's mass murder steming from his atheism from Wikipedia:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion[75]

There's a problem with this. you very own quote says, basically, that Stalin was anti-religion because it got in the way of his communism. He wasn't doing all this on atheistic principles, he was using atheism as a tool for his communism.

if you want to make the claim that using atheism to fight against something he does not like means its atheism's fault then... suddenly Christianity is responsible for Hitler again, even by your own comments, because he use(or abused) Christianity to further his own ends. That is EXACTLY what your quote states Stalin to have done with atheism.

And still do to this day, in fact. You have to remember that the KKK is a Christian organization and even looking at racist splinter groups, virtually all of them espouse a fundamentalist Christian view.

Are you threatened by the KKK? I've never met one, outside of a history book.

My mother was literally threatened by the KKK.
and I'm Caucasian, btw.

Religion has a demonstrable negative correlation with societal health.

http://www.vibrantlife.com/vl/article-81.html

Note:

"People of faith consistently exhibit higher levels of mental, physical, and relational wellness according to a study by research psychiatrist Daniel Larson, funded by the NIHR. In the area of psychiatry, 92 percent of the findings showed that religious commitment produced a beneficial effect and that religious people lived longer than nonreligious. He also found that smokers who were not religious were "seven times more likely to have elevated blood pressure than those who said religion was important."

A study of elderly women hospitalized with broken hips, reported in a 1990 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, found that those who were religiously committed were less depressed, had shorter hospital stays, and could walk farther at the time of discharge than those who were not religious."

That quote does not help you. he said societal health, not personal health.

Why is it during the health care debate we are told our health is a societal issue?

You are still missing the statement. he's referring to the health of the society as a whole. not the health of individuals, or even the health of the members of society, he's talking about the viability of the societal structure.

also, would you care to respond to any of my points?

[Cephus]

There's a problem with this. you very own quote says, basically, that Stalin was anti-religion because it got in the way of his communism. He wasn't doing all this on atheistic principles, he was using atheism as a tool for his communism.

Yes and no. Stalin wanted absolute loyalty to the state and therefore he tried to do away with anything that might get in the way of the people's allegiance. That included religion but was not limited to it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think that anyone who says anything bad about religion must be directly attacking religion, the religious and anything related to the religion. That's the reason you find so many Christians today, when they're told they cannot use their religion as an excuse to harm others, claim discrimination.

My mother was literally threatened by the KKK.

While I've never been threatened by the KKK or any other racist organization, I certainly have seen them in action. I have minority friends who have come from the Deep South who have absolutely been threatened and in at least one case, physically attacked based on their skin color. Anyone who doesn't believe the KKK exists isn't paying any attention, they have very visible parades in very public places in the South.

That quote does not help you. he said societal health, not personal health.

Besides, we already know that the placebo effect works, it doesn't matter if what you believe is true or false, the fact that you believe something will help you will produce a positive health effect. However, studies likewise show that it doesn't matter what religion you hold, or what strong belief for that matter, the same effects can be seen. Religion doesn't help, being personally deluded apparently does.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

Are you threatened by the KKK? I've never met one, outside of a history book.

Stunning! Simply stunning! Once again you show a complete lack of knowledge about history, and a propensity to rewrite it to fit your own desires and beliefs.

I was in Greensborough NC in 1979. I was part of the Death to the Klan March and witnessed the murders of 5 people on the streets by members of the Klan and the American Nazi party. I knew Dr. Waller, we had worked together in the textile workers union(the reason I was there). I was threatened by members of the KKK, some were actually members of the police. I grew up in a society where almost all elected officials had to give at least lip service to the Klan and the "Good Ol' Boy" network it supported, that was just the way it was in the South in the fifties and sixties. The Klan still survives today.

And by his actions (persecution of Christians) and private speech he was clearly not a Christian.

Careful, the exact same thing could accurately be said of the Catholic Church.

Evidence of Stalin's mass murder steming from his atheism from Wikipedia:
"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society."

Stalin killed people not because of his lack of belief in supernatural superstitions, but in order to advance his power and the communist state. Communism is a philosophy(a religion one might say)which has atheism as one of it's precepts.

Hitler killed people BECAUSE of his religiously based antisemitism. Religious differences were CENTRAL to his actions.

There is a huge difference.

The New Testament condemns slave-trading.

Book, chapter and verses need to be cited here.

Those that ended the practice were Christians motivated by their beliefs in the 1800s, not free-thinkers.

Do you just not read anything that makes your statements look silly(or at least ignore it)?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 185#284185

You're changing the subject from Christianity to the OT Nation of Israel.

Why is it not hipocracy when Christians dis the Old Testament when it doesn't fit what they say, but they use it whever it suits them(creationism is SOLELY based on the OT). When anyone points out the genocide, rape, incest and other reprehensable acts in the OT christians say "Well, that was the Jews", yet they gladly quote from that same document in support of the Garden of Eden, the Flood, death to gays(as recently in Ughanda), etc.

Quote:
The fact is, atheists and theists both have the same source of morality, atheists are just honest about it.

Huh?

Even if you do not understand or admit the fact, your religion is a figment of men's imagination, a totally fabricated group of stories and beliefs, leavened with a little wise philosophical ideas. Atheists simply accept the wise philosophy and recognize the nature of the rest. So, yes, our morality is the same as yours, we just are more honest about it.

Grumpy