Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[whirlwind]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

The act was evil done by the evil but that was the reason He came in flesh.

If this act was evil yet had the consequences you accept...why should the Holocaust (for example) be considered evil if it had consequences that can now perceived as acceptable?

Why should 'satan' be accepted as 'evil'?

The d-evil is evil for his fight is to keep souls from the Father. He does this through deception...pretending to be so holy as he masquerades as a follower of God. Who was it that forced the crucifixion of Christ? Not Rome, not Judas...although both were players but it was the high priest. However, it had to be.

The Holocaust I don't understand Bernee. Although through Biblical history Israel has been subject to many terrible things. There are places where it is written He took His protection away because they didn't follow Him. It isn't that He punished them but He no longer protected them. They were subject to the world without Him. They broke the covenant...not Him.

I must ask....why do you see the results of the Holocaust as now being "acceptable?" Or am I not understanding what you wrote?

It was prophesied a thousand years before it happened [Psalms 22].

Off topic, but....

Please show how this is a prophesy. I am sure the Judaic scholars amongst us will beg to differ.

Please show how this so-called prophesy is not a case of retrofitting aan event that was believed to have happened (death and resurrection) to fit with the OT text in order to give the beleif more credibility.

Why are you not being duped by this?

Because it was written long before the birth of Christ. The words were never changed.

His purpose...

John quotes....

How did 'John', writing at the earliest some 50 years after the fact know all this?

How can what he wrote ver verified?

Why are you not being duped by this?

John was with Him.

He lived in John and He lives in me and He lives in believers. We are given to know.

Duped by the Words? Why are you not being duped by atheism?

[Goat]

are we just learning from the christians and picking apart their arguments for Jesus Living a perfect Life and dying a terrible death? or is there any elegid evidence/ reason to believe the contrary?

The evidence/reason to believe the opposite is the lack of evidence FOR, and the contrary stories ABOUT.

We must also not forget the fantastic and fantasy like stories that violate the laws of nature about also.

[Misty]

are we just learning from the christians and picking apart their arguments for Jesus Living a perfect Life and dying a terrible death? or is there any elegid evidence/ reason to believe the contrary?

The evidence/reason to believe the opposite is the lack of evidence FOR, and the contrary stories ABOUT.

We must also not forget the fantastic and fantasy like stories that violate the laws of nature about also.

If some sort of deity was responsible for kicking off the universe, why would it want to break the laws of nature from time to time?

[Clownboat]

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<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

[sammy]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

[Zzyzx]

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Hi Sammy,

Welcome to the forum. You raise interesting points -- honestly presented.

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in.

I agree that it must be very difficult to try to debate using a combination of scripture and [modern / scientifically derived] knowledge because the two are often (usually?) in conflict.

“Scripture� represents the level of ignorance of the real world characteristic of people living thousands of years ago, PLUS a great deal of superstition and supernaturalism to “explain� what was not understood (such as “demons� causing disease and “punishment� accounting for natural occurrences).

Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels.

Why assume the ancient beliefs in “Satan� are true? That was the opinion of storytellers and religious promoters who may have invented supernatural characters to “explain� what they did not understand.

when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out,

How can you state as though factual what “god� is doing? Is that conjecture or opinion? If so, it is honorable in debate to preface such remarks with, “I believe� or “Christianity proposes�.

and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap?

The “gap� exists ONLY if one accepts bible stories as literally true (or even substantially true). Those who do not accept the bible as authoritative have no “gap� to explain.

or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

“What was wronged� is a Christian concept that does not apply to Non-Christians. Perhaps followers of that religion conceive of themselves as needing to “patch up� something their dogma says exists. Others are not compelled (or taught or indoctrinated) to feel such need.


You will find that unsupported claims and dogma from religious teachings or indoctrination are NOT accepted here as “given� (or truthful or meaningful) in debate.

[Clownboat]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

None of what you just said is even remotely true. Stop making up lies. We all know that god and Satan were not best friends, but were in fact distant pen pells. What really broke up their relationship was the fact Satan liked dinosaurs so much, and was not writing god often enough. So god decided to destroy the earth and all the dinosaurs. That really pissed Satan off, so Satan called god a doo doo head, and from there the relationship went south.

My statement is true because I backed it up with just as much evidence as you put into your post.

Making up stories is fun!

[whirlwind]

.

<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

[whirlwind]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

None of what you just said is even remotely true. Stop making up lies. We all know that god and Satan were not best friends, but were in fact distant pen pells. What really broke up their relationship was the fact Satan liked dinosaurs so much, and was not writing god often enough. So god decided to destroy the earth and all the dinosaurs. That really pissed Satan off, so Satan called god a doo doo head, and from there the relationship went south.

My statement is true because I backed it up with just as much evidence as you put into your post.

Making up stories is fun!

Sammy is correct. Satan was loved by God. But then Satan thought he would be a god, higher than God and he rebelled. In doing so he took many souls with him, just as they are now with him. History repeats itself. God ended that first age, the age of the dinosaurs and has given us another chance in this present age to make our decision. Will we stand with God or follow Satan?

[Clownboat]

.

<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

Many would argue that the Bible/God takes away meaning in our life, not provides meaning.

The statement "life has no meaning without God" means nothing to those that find meaning in their lives without beliveing in God. I find it impossible for your statement to be true.