To the Jew first?

[chameleonz85]

The two-covenant theory has circulated for some years among non-evangelicals and even among some conservative Christians. If you've ever been told that Jews don't need Jesus because they "already have a covenant with God," then you are hearing this theory of salvation, which was developed by Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig early in this century. Gudel, a Lutheran pastor, summarizes the history of the theory and briefly surveys what Jewish and Christian proponents have written. Then he delves into a biblical analysis with an examination of passages such as Romans 1:16, 2:9, and Acts 13:46. He traces the missionary core of Christianity through Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. Gudel then suggests provocatively that promotion of the two-covenant theory is anti-Semitic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHEPJAL_J8
Here is a story of a missionary in Israel

[cnorman18]

The two-covenant theory has circulated for some years among non-evangelicals and even among some conservative Christians. If you've ever been told that Jews don't need Jesus because they "already have a covenant with God," then you are hearing this theory of salvation, which was developed by Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig early in this century. Gudel, a Lutheran pastor, summarizes the history of the theory and briefly surveys what Jewish and Christian proponents have written. Then he delves into a biblical analysis with an examination of passages such as Romans 1:16, 2:9, and Acts 13:46. He traces the missionary core of Christianity through Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. Gudel then suggests provocatively that promotion of the two-covenant theory is anti-Semitic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHEPJAL_J8
Here is a story of a missionary in Israel

I'm a Jew.

I have no comment on whether or not there are two covenants; I know for sure that there is one.

The idea, implicit throughout this video and explicit in the teachings of "Jews for Jesus," that Jews are doomed to Hell unless they become Christians absolutely IS antisemitic. This is called "Replacement Theology," and it has been the direct and indirect cause of antisemitism for centuries, with its resultant oppression, exile, torture and murder of Jews in the name of Jesus.

In point of fact, "Jews for Jesus" is an organization sponsored, financed, and overwhelmingly staffed by Christians who were never Jewish. That organization conceals that fact, and deliberately fosters deception by using Jews as "front men," as it does in this video and others.

For a Jewish response, see here.

Jews do not condemn Christianity as a false and futile religion; we have neither the warrant nor the right to do that.

Would that Christians would extend the same courtesy to us.

A final note; Proselytization and preaching is not allowed on this forum. Be very careful.

[naz]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that dont want help for themselves or dont care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

[cnorman18]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that dont want help for themselves or dont care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

[chameleonz85]

naz
Well I'm glad not all believers feel like it was a waste of time, there are many Jews who are seeking truth but are trapped in tradition and community expectation. The realization that many Jews who find Jesus have in common is that our expectations for God's plan not actually God's plan. So please don't give up on my people.

cnorman18

Your argument and accusations of the organization Jews for Jesus sounds like you copied and pasted it from Tovia Singer profile page of Facebook. Look if you hold to the Covenant, which in my opinion is a wonderful thing to aspire to, you are responsible to hold to it, every single custom and tradition, but that is impossible right, (no Temple, no sacrifice for sin) Because of circumstances we cannot obey God and God never commanded to replace sacrifice with mitzvahs (good deeds), that is an invention of the same religious leaders who rejected Jesus. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes from the heart and that is why he called the leaders hypocrites because of their self-righteousness. So let me get to the point, self-righteousness is one of many sins and if you are sinning you are not keeping the covenant, but Jesus came to take the penalty of breaking that covenant and we should still strive to keep the law in humility because that is what God wants, not because we need to in order to be saved. The fact is we can't save ourselves.

So is it Anti-Semitic, no because Gentiles who reject Jesus and are guilty of that same self-righteousness are under the wrath of God as well. Yes this whole world is in danger and only Jesus can satisfy the wrath of God.

[cnorman18]

naz
Well I'm glad not all believers feel like it was a waste of time, there are many Jews who are seeking truth but are trapped in tradition and community expectation. The realization that many Jews who find Jesus have in common is that our expectations for God's plan not actually God's plan. So please don't give up on my people.

cnorman18

Your argument and accusations of the organization Jews for Jesus sounds like you copied and pasted it from Tovia Singer profile page of Facebook. Look if you hold to the Covenant, which in my opinion is a wonderful thing to aspire to, you are responsible to hold to it, every single custom and tradition, but that is impossible right, (no Temple, no sacrifice for sin) Because of circumstances we cannot obey God and God never commanded to replace sacrifice with mitzvahs (good deeds), that is an invention of the same religious leaders who rejected Jesus. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes from the heart and that is why he called the leaders hypocrites because of their self-righteousness. So let me get to the point, self-righteousness is one of many sins and if you are sinning you are not keeping the covenant, but Jesus came to take the penalty of breaking that covenant and we should still strive to keep the law in humility because that is what God wants, not because we need to in order to be saved. The fact is we can't save ourselves.

So is it Anti-Semitic, no because Gentiles who reject Jesus and are guilty of that same self-righteousness are under the wrath of God as well. Yes this whole world is in danger and only Jesus can satisfy the wrath of God.

This is why I object to the proselytization of Jews: you absolutely misrepresent, aka "lie about," the teachings of the Jewish religion; or, alternatively, you presume to arrogantly dictate what the beliefs of Jews should be.

Paul notwithstanding, Judaism does not teach that a Jew must obey the Law completely and perfectly, and never did. Saying that that is an element of the Jewish religion is an objective falsehood. Period.

From where I sit, claiming to know the teachings of a religion other than your own and dismissing its ACTUAL teachings as false is an excellent example of "self-righteousness" in its purest form.

Do you actually claim to speak for God, claiming that He has abrogated the covenant of Abraham and has condemned Jews to Hell if we don't accept Jesus as our personal Savior? If you do, say it straight out.

ETA: For the record, I never heard of Tovia Singer. These are the views of every Jew I know, Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, or whatever.

[McCulloch]

naz
Well I'm glad not all believers feel like it was a waste of time, there are many Jews who are seeking truth but are trapped in tradition and community expectation. The realization that many Jews who find Jesus have in common is that our expectations for God's plan not actually God's plan. So please don't give up on my people.

The Jews have a word for other Jews who have found Jesus. That word is Christian. I have found, in my somewhat anecdotal and subjective experience, that the Jews who debate here display a greater propensity for seeking the truth of any particular matter than the Christians who doggedly believe that they already have found it.

[naz]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that dont want help for themselves or dont care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

Well to me, this means you dont fully understand Christianity or what it means to be a Christian to say it is patronizing towards Jewish people. If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion.

[cnorman18]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that dont want help for themselves or dont care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

Well to me, this means you dont fully understand Christianity or what it means to be a Christian to say it is patronizing towards Jewish people. If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion.

LOL! I think I'll let someone else explain my credentials for "understanding Christianity" and "hostility towards the Christian religion." I can't be bothered.

But you might explain to ME how telling members of another religion that they don't understand their own faith and need instruction from non-Jews in order to do so ISN'T patronizing. That isn't built into the Christian faith. Many Christians know better.

Paul, by the way, was one of them. Read Romans 11.

[Abraxas]

Seems like a waste of time. Try telling a Jewish person about Jesus and they will not want to hear it. It is pointless trying to help people that dont want help for themselves or dont care to hear anything you would have to say to them about a particular topic, especially one about Jesus. I actually made a debate topic about this not long ago. Jews for Jesus

On this, we agree, though I wouldn't characterize the disinterest of Jews in Jesus as "not wanting help." We don't need any "help," thanks... And that's precisely the kind of patronizing assumption that we find incredibly offensive.

My comments on the thread linked can be found on that thread.

Well to me, this means you dont fully understand Christianity or what it means to be a Christian to say it is patronizing towards Jewish people. If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion.

... he says, to a former Christian Minister.

Coming to this from the perspective of a non-believer, I understand what it is to have people try to "save" me. You might not recognize it as patronizing, but look at it from our perspective. You have this belief, which you do not regard as merely a belief but factual information. Most of the time this "information" is considered to be something basic, obvious. How can you not be a Christian everyone (here) is a Christian?

From that standpoint, evangelizing Christians have attempted to bring me to Christ. They believe they hold the one true key, the only such key, to not merely worldly happiness but eternal happiness and that everybody else has it wrong and is doomed (DOOMED!) and so they take it upon themselves to impart this secret of eternal bliss at anyone within firing range.

When we decline to accept your point of view, the reactions usually fall somewhere along the lines of "I'll pray for you", "you just want to live in sin", or the classic "you're going to hell". Why is this patronizing? Well, first you start with the presumption you have some secret truth I need whether I know it and want it or not, and that you are better than those who do not have that truth. It isn't enough I more or less act like you, you insist I have to think like you. Any objections I raised are presumed to be a result of some failing on my part, we can't have an intellectual disagreement, evangelism doesn't permit the possibility there may be legitimate reasons for not believing in God or believing in a different God.

The whole idea that we are in this terrible danger but are too blind to see it, or too "uninformed" (to put it politely), that any thoughts we have that run contrary to this must be removed from us, that any disagreements we have are the result of some moral or intellectual failing, that you know what is best for us even if we know it isn't, you don't see this as patronizing?

You just told a former Christian Minister he doesn't understand Christianity because he doesn't agree with you. You really don't see how "If you did know what the Christian faith was about you would not hold such hostility towards the Christian religion." is exactly what we are talking about when we tell you that makes us feel patronized?