To the Jew first?

[chameleonz85]

The two-covenant theory has circulated for some years among non-evangelicals and even among some conservative Christians. If you've ever been told that Jews don't need Jesus because they "already have a covenant with God," then you are hearing this theory of salvation, which was developed by Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig early in this century. Gudel, a Lutheran pastor, summarizes the history of the theory and briefly surveys what Jewish and Christian proponents have written. Then he delves into a biblical analysis with an examination of passages such as Romans 1:16, 2:9, and Acts 13:46. He traces the missionary core of Christianity through Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. Gudel then suggests provocatively that promotion of the two-covenant theory is anti-Semitic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHEPJAL_J8
Here is a story of a missionary in Israel

[Slopeshoulder]

It is a two sided issue, if he or Jewish people don’t think they need help then why do they turn to God or certain aspects of their religion for guidance, answers and understanding? It seems self-contradicting if you ask me. It means they don’t need a savior, and that would mean they wouldn’t follow certain prophesy so what makes them think those same prophecies should be fulfilled or applied to Jesus if they don’t believe in them to begin with. It doesn’t make any sense. How can you be a part of a religion or faith if you don’t follow it or believe in it?

What "makes no sense" is this post. Jews (and many seminary trained christians) don't believe that prophecy predicts the future (rather it analyzes situations, calls the people back to core values, speaks truth to power; it is not soothsaying. ONE class at seminary would teach you that; even an undergrad OT class would clarify the issue), and the idea that the Jewish prophets were predicting your favorite god is offensive and wrong to assume and project (even you have a right to believe it). It's like saying the Dutch are self-contradictory and don't get it because they don't use ketchup on french fries but instead offer about 30 mayonaisse-based sauces; but the dutch and beligians invented frites and they laugh at our ketchup.
And Jews don't equate looking to god with needing a savior; in both claims (equating help with saviors and prophecy) you are projecting your beliefs and assumptions on them, defining religion narrowly, and through your own lens, and also loudly trumpeting your own ignorance and poor grasp on reasoning. Your remarks strike this reader as glib and ill-considered. They are also fallacious.
Your entire (non) arguement is circular, self-referential and misinformed. Again.

[naz]

There is a big difference between trying to convert people over to a particular religion and having a civilized debate. These issues never seem to get address and are constantly slandered about when a topic like this gets posted. There is no civilized debate, and like I said earlier you can’t talk to Jewish people about their beliefs. They simply don’t care to talk about them or find a deeper understanding of things. Just because a Jewish person criticizes everything there is in the bible and says this or that doesn’t mean they are right and the bible is wrong. I’m not real sure where Cnorman18 or anyone else gets off no that.

I can see why a Jewish person would be afraid to walk into a Catholic church because the first thing they would see is a body hanging on the cross, being Jesus. I’m sure the site can be daunting, but people that don’t face their fears will ever be able to live past them. I believe that is why there is so much anger and disgust amongst those of the Jewish community who are not very outspoken about their views and beliefs. They don’t really have much to talk about so they just keep it to themselves.

Right now, being today, Christians and Muslims are probably a lot closer than Christians and Jewish or Muslims and Jewish people are. Muslims and Christians are actually taking the time to create dialog with one another while Jewish people are just sitting on the sideline.

[WinePusher]

That is a falsehood. I accused you of misrepresenting Jewish thought because you were factually wrong. Whether or not you are a Jew is irrelevant. NO ONE has the right to say what "Jews believe," not even a Jew, not even a rabbi. A Jew has a right to say what HE or SHE believes. Period.

When I say that Christians believe that Jesus is divine, I say that because tit is a key tenant to the religion. There may be unorthodox Christians who believe different things about Jesus, but to be considered a Christian thhere is a prerequisite.

Now, when it comes to Judaism, is it safe to say that all polytheists are not Jews? Because when I said that Jews view God as:

1) God as Creator
2) God as a Supernatural Being
3) God as an Eternal Being
4) God as Omnipotent and Omniscient
5) God as a Moral Law Giver

I also substantiated them with the Old Testament and Maimonides Points, not Christian websites, as you suggested. I am not saying that all Jews must believe this, I'm saying that they are uniform beliefs by which Jews view God. Would you condemn me if I said Jews worship Yaweh or were monotheists?

See if you can get it this time: There is no dogma, no required beliefs, in Judaism. When you say "Jews believe X," you are factually wrong from the get-go, because whatever X may be, not all Jews believe it, and we don't have to.

So you're saying that Jews can believe whatever they want and still be considered a Jew? And I speak in context of religious Jews, not secular Jews.

There are beliefs which are forbidden. Multiple gods, idol worship, and the idea that a man could be God Incarnate are among them.

Ok, but what exactly is wrong with my 5 points above?

However, I substantiated all my claims with Jewish Authoritative sources.

No, you didn't. You "substantiated your claims" from Wikipedia and a Christian website, and ignored the actual Jewish references I gave you.

On the wikipedia webpage were Maimonides Points, and the Christian webpage were verses from the Old Testament. While Jews may not be literalists and see the bible as the sole source of truth, are you going to say it is not authoritative at all?

But you often cite your former Methodist background as a basis of substantial knowledge for you to speak of Christianity. How is that not a double standard? When I speak in regards to Judaism, you accuse me of not understanding Judaism, yet when someone accuses you of not understanding Christianity, you go on the defensive.

If this is the case, should I not also be able to speak about Judaism and not be admonished for misrepresenting the religion simply because I'm not a Jew?

If I were "admonishing" you for misrepresenting the Jewish religion "simply because [you're] not a Jew," that would be a valid criticism. Unfortunately, that is a falsehood. I was CORRECTING you because you were FACTUALLY WRONG.

1) Me, personally, being a Jew has nothing to do with my understanding of it
2) I would think it valid if I said "All Jews Believe" but I didn't. I suggested that the Jewish religion has uniform concepts with their views on God. Unless you can debunk and argue the merits of the topic, they stand.

If you want to have that debate again, I'm ready. But I would ask again: How many books, articles, pamphlets, or fricken PAGES have you ever actually read about Judaism that were written by JEWS? My guess was, and remains, "none." Care to dispute that?

Considering you've never been to my home or seen what is on my bookshelf I would consider this indisputable. But I do have one book "The Idiots Guide to Judaism" by Rabbi Blech, it may not be an orthodox Jewish text but it is by a Rabbi.

Want to ask me the same question -- how many books about Christianity have I ever read that were written by Christians?

Sure, go ahead.

Please do. I'd be willing to bet a year's pay that the answer is "more than you."

I would ask you how you know this?

Just off the top my head, I've read BOOKS from C. S. Lewis, John Stott, Francis Schaeffer, Peter Berger, Hal Lindsey, Watchman Nee, and John fricken Hagee to Karl Barth, Rudolf Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Teilhard de Chardin, Thomas Aquinas, Boethius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, F. F. Bruce, Reinhold and Richard Neibuhr, and I studied directly under Albert Outler, Robert Farmer, and Schubert Ogden. Conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, radical, literalist, whatever. How many of those Christian writers and theologians have you ever even HEARD of?

Well, I've heard of St. Augustive and C.S Lewis. I've read many books by Lewis and translated Augustine's confessions from latin in class. I have only one book by Boethius, and no books by Aquinas (but have read many exerpts). But I must say, I don't know quite a few of those people you mention.

Right out front; when we're talking about either Christian or Jewish teachings I know what I'm talking about. Concerning the latter, you don't; and concerning the former, I think I know at least as much as you.

You want to appeal to authority? Go for it. I'm more than ready.

I don't dispute the claim that you are knowledgable on christianity. The problem is, however, that you (a non-christian) can speak about Christianity but then you criticize me (a non-Jew) when speaking on Judaism.

[Goat]

There is a big difference between trying to convert people over to a particular religion and having a civilized debate. These issues never seem to get address and are constantly slandered about when a topic like this gets posted. There is no civilized debate, and like I said earlier you can’t talk to Jewish people about their beliefs. They simply don’t care to talk about them or find a deeper understanding of things. Just because a Jewish person criticizes everything there is in the bible and says this or that doesn’t mean they are right and the bible is wrong. I’m not real sure where Cnorman18 or anyone else gets off no that.

I can see why a Jewish person would be afraid to walk into a Catholic church because the first thing they would see is a body hanging on the cross, being Jesus. I’m sure the site can be daunting, but people that don’t face their fears will ever be able to live past them. I believe that is why there is so much anger and disgust amongst those of the Jewish community who are not very outspoken about their views and beliefs. They don’t really have much to talk about so they just keep it to themselves.

Right now, being today, Christians and Muslims are probably a lot closer than Christians and Jewish or Muslims and Jewish people are. Muslims and Christians are actually taking the time to create dialog with one another while Jewish people are just sitting on the sideline.

There is just ONE big point that Judaism and Islam will agree on that will make some Muslims disagree with. That is the concept of 'Jesus is God'.

[Slopeshoulder]

There is a big difference between trying to convert people over to a particular religion and having a civilized debate. These issues never seem to get address and are constantly slandered about when a topic like this gets posted. There is no civilized debate, and like I said earlier you can’t talk to Jewish people about their beliefs. They simply don’t care to talk about them or find a deeper understanding of things. Just because a Jewish person criticizes everything there is in the bible and says this or that doesn’t mean they are right and the bible is wrong. I’m not real sure where Cnorman18 or anyone else gets off no that.

You're right to want civilized debate. I'd also put in a vote for informed debate.
But you're generalizing. For instance I have no trouble talking to Jews about religion; I never seem to upset them. I never try to convert them though, I just talk to friends, or treat people as friends.

I can see why a Jewish person would be afraid to walk into a Catholic church because the first thing they would see is a body hanging on the cross, being Jesus. I’m sure the site can be daunting, but people that don’t face their fears will ever be able to live past them. I believe that is why there is so much anger and disgust amongst those of the Jewish community who are not very outspoken about their views and beliefs. They don’t really have much to talk about so they just keep it to themselves.

You use the word afraid loosely. I doubt they are afraid.
Why would you assume they should want to eneter the church or face the fear? Why would you presume that this is a type of growth for them? Again you're pushing your agenda on the other. This is also insidiously anti-Semetic.
And you, you should know, are very close to engaging in the anti-semetic stereotype of the "pushy Jew."
My best friend, a Jew, came to my brothers funeral mass and we had a nice chat about the structure of the structure of the mass, started by him. He also recommended several catholic cathedrals, places that filled him with awe and a sense of the holy, that i should visit in Europe (talk about big-heartedness given the jewish experience in Europe). My other best friend, also a Jew, converted from protestantism when he got married. These flies in the face of your assumptions. He's raising his kids as jews and named them Eli and Enoch. BTW, both of these guys are senior creative directors in major ad agencies and spend most of there free time as musicians; they're not all about religion.

Right now, being today, Christians and Muslims are probably a lot closer than Christians and Jewish or Muslims and Jewish people are. Muslims and Christians are actually taking the time to create dialog with one another while Jewish people are just sitting on the sideline.

Where do you read this? Please provide sources. Jews participate in many interfaith dialogues and communities. The student body at the New Seminary in NYC has plenty of Jews, for example. This is what I will now formally call anti-Semetic generalizing, otherizing, and attempts to change and absorb the other. You are some piece of work. I identify you as an anti-Semite.

[cnorman18]

That is a falsehood. I accused you of misrepresenting Jewish thought because you were factually wrong. Whether or not you are a Jew is irrelevant. NO ONE has the right to say what "Jews believe," not even a Jew, not even a rabbi. A Jew has a right to say what HE or SHE believes. Period.

When I say that Christians believe that Jesus is divine, I say that because it is a key tenant to the religion. There may be unorthodox Christians who believe different things about Jesus, but to be considered a Christian thhere is a prerequisite.

Now, when it comes to Judaism, is it safe to say that all polytheists are not Jews? Because when I said that Jews view God as:

1) God as Creator
2) God as a Supernatural Being
3) God as an Eternal Being
4) God as Omnipotent and Omniscient
5) God as a Moral Law Giver

I also substantiated them with the Old Testament and Maimonides Points, not Christian websites, as you suggested. I am not saying that all Jews must believe this, I'm saying that they are uniform beliefs by which Jews view God. Would you condemn me if I said Jews worship Yaweh or were monotheists?

Well, you've gone a lot farther than that with your "five points." MOST Jews may believe all of those things -- I, for one, don't -- but in particular, there are no "uniform beliefs by which Jews view God." In Judaism, God is formally called UNDEFINED. I really don't see what's so hard about that. Judaism just isn't like Christianity in that regard; get over it.

See if you can get it this time: There is no dogma, no required beliefs, in Judaism. When you say "Jews believe X," you are factually wrong from the get-go, because whatever X may be, not all Jews believe it, and we don't have to.

So you're saying that Jews can believe whatever they want and still be considered a Jew? And I speak in context of religious Jews, not secular Jews.

In terms of how they view or think of God? Almost, yes; some beliefs are out of court, as noted below. Otherwise, Jews may believe God is a nonsentient Force, a Principle, a personal, intelligent Entity, the collective Intelligence in the Universe, or whatever else they choose. God isn't saying, and no one has the right to speak for Him.

There are beliefs which are forbidden. Multiple gods, idol worship, and the idea that a man could be God Incarnate are among them.

Ok, but what exactly is wrong with my 5 points above?

However, I substantiated all my claims with Jewish Authoritative sources.

No, you didn't. You "substantiated your claims" from Wikipedia and a Christian website, and ignored the actual Jewish references I gave you.

On the wikipedia webpage were Maimonides Points, and the Christian webpage were verses from the Old Testament. While Jews may not be literalists and see the bible as the sole source of truth, are you going to say it is not authoritative at all?

In the way that you keep insisting on, that is correct; not at all. Maimonides wasn't considered an Authority even in his own day, and certainly not NEARLY all Jews accept his Points as dogma today. The Bible is authoritative only insofar as its pronouncements are confirmed by the tradition, in the Talmud and the thousands upon thousands of other writings in Jewish literature and scholarship, and not on its own. Are you getting this yet? I'm only willing to repeat this so many times.

But you often cite your former Methodist background as a basis of substantial knowledge for you to speak of Christianity. How is that not a double standard? When I speak in regards to Judaism, you accuse me of not understanding Judaism, yet when someone accuses you of not understanding Christianity, you go on the defensive.

If this is the case, should I not also be able to speak about Judaism and not be admonished for misrepresenting the religion simply because I'm not a Jew?

If I were "admonishing" you for misrepresenting the Jewish religion "simply because [you're] not a Jew," that would be a valid criticism. Unfortunately, that is a falsehood. I was CORRECTING you because you were FACTUALLY WRONG.

1) Me, personally, being a Jew has nothing to do with my understanding of it

Then you shouldn't have alleged that that was why I was disputing your claims.

2) I would think it valid if I said "All Jews Believe" but I didn't. I suggested that the Jewish religion has uniform concepts with their views on God. Unless you can debunk and argue the merits of the topic, they stand.

THERE ARE NO UNIFORM CONCEPTS OF GOD IN THE JEWISH RELIGION. Are we done with that now?

If you want to have that debate again, I'm ready. But I would ask again: How many books, articles, pamphlets, or fricken PAGES have you ever actually read about Judaism that were written by JEWS? My guess was, and remains, "none." Care to dispute that?

Considering you've never been to my home or seen what is on my bookshelf I would consider this indisputable. But I do have one book "The Idiots Guide to Judaism" by Rabbi Blech, it may not be an orthodox Jewish text but it is by a Rabbi.

I note you say it is "on your bookshelf."

Have you READ it?

I've been doing this a long time, pardner. If you're going to try to slip one past me, you're going to have to do better than that. I have that book, too, and I see no evidence here that you've ever read a line of it.

Want to ask me the same question -- how many books about Christianity have I ever read that were written by Christians?

Sure, go ahead.

Please do. I'd be willing to bet a year's pay that the answer is "more than you."

I would ask you how you know this?

Just off the top my head, I've read BOOKS from C. S. Lewis, John Stott, Francis Schaeffer, Peter Berger, Hal Lindsey, Watchman Nee, and John fricken Hagee to Karl Barth, Rudolf Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Teilhard de Chardin, Thomas Aquinas, Boethius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, F. F. Bruce, Reinhold and Richard Neibuhr, and I studied directly under Albert Outler, Robert Farmer, and Schubert Ogden. Conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, radical, literalist, whatever. How many of those Christian writers and theologians have you ever even HEARD of?

Well, I've heard of St. Augustive and C.S Lewis. I've read many books by Lewis and translated Augustine's confessions from latin in class. I have only one book by Boethius, and no books by Aquinas (but have read many exerpts). But I must say, I don't know quite a few of those people you mention.

Maybe you should have edited out your last question -- "I would ask you how you know this?" -- before you posted.

Right out front; when we're talking about either Christian or Jewish teachings I know what I'm talking about. Concerning the latter, you don't; and concerning the former, I think I know at least as much as you.

You want to appeal to authority? Go for it. I'm more than ready.

I don't dispute the claim that you are knowledgable on christianity. The problem is, however, that you (a non-christian) can speak about Christianity but then you criticize me (a non-Jew) when speaking on Judaism.

And we've dealt with that multiple times. Maybe you can come up with some new arguments next time that haven't already been refuted.

You can speak on Judaism all you want, but you're still talking through your hat --still claiming final authority for documents that don't have it, still making assumptions about Jewish beliefs that aren't warranted -- and you're still pretending I'm criticizing what you say about Judaism because you're not a Jew. I think we've dealt with all that quite enough, and over and over. If you don't get it, I don't think I can help you.

Let's go back to some basics. This is from a post I put up on my second day on this forum, November 12, 2007. It's as true and relevant today as it was then.

Ten Things You Didn't Know About Judaism

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today.

Just to get this party started: here are ten things you probably didn't know about Judaism.

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.

2. Belief in Heaven is not particularly important in Judaism anyway. An afterlife is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in a life after death. Those who do, as a rule, do not speculate on what it might be like.

3. Jews are not concerned with "salvation" in the Christian sense. The subject is of very little interest to us. We believe that God is the sole Judge, and that we have no warrant to anticipate His judgment in any way. Our concern is proper conduct in this life; we leave the next life, if there is one, to God.

4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith. We claim to know only how God has chosen to speak to us; if He has chosen to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours.

5. There is no hierarchy in Judaism. There is no Jewish Pope, no Supreme Council, no person or body that is qualified or empowered to make pronouncements on the proper beliefs or practices of Jews. Every congregation is independent; even the broad "movements" in Judaism--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox--are a matter of voluntary association on the part of independent congregations, and have no power to prescribe practice or doctrine. There are advisory committees, but that is their only function.

6. There is no "doctrine" in Judaism anyway. Judaism has no Creed, no Confession of Faith, no list of specified beliefs or articles of faith. "Beliefs" in Judaism are very much a matter of individual choice, and are of relatively little importance anyway. No one much cares what anyone BELIEVES; we are concerned with what they DO.

7. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew." Jews who believe in Jesus are properly called "Christians." There are few, if any, beliefs that Jews are required to hold, but there are a few that are forbidden; and belief in Jesus as the Divine Messiah is one of them.

8. There is no Jewish "race." Though the Jewish religion began with members of a single family, that of Abraham, it has accepted converts from the very beginning, and there are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth. There are communities of Chinese Jews, Indian Jews, Black African Jews, Arab Jews, and Persian Jews that go back for millenia; and very many literal descendants of Abraham (of Ishmael and Esau, to name a son and grandson) are not Jewish.

9. Jews do not generally read the Bible as literal history, and haven't for centuries. The early chapters of Genesis are spiritual and symbolic, and not literal. Tne Hebrew word "Adam" means "Mankind" as well as being a personal name; and Jewish scholars estimated the time of the Creation as being around 15.3 billion years ago--about the same time as modern astrophysicists--at least as early as the first century of the common era. There are very few Jewish "creationists." And it is, after all, OUR Book.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

[cnorman18]

There is a big difference between trying to convert people over to a particular religion and having a civilized debate.

That would be correct, and what we have here is mostly the former.

These issues never seem to get address and are constantly slandered about when a topic like this gets posted.

Please document "slander." You might want to look it up first.

There is no civilized debate, and like I said earlier you can’t talk to Jewish people about their beliefs.

If by "talk to about their beliefs" you mean "dictate their beliefs," that would be correct.

They simply don’t care to talk about them or find a deeper understanding of things.

Please provide evidence for this claim. There is certainly none here.

Just because a Jewish person criticizes everything there is in the bible...

Please provide evidence for this claim.

...and says this or that doesn’t mean they are right and the bible is wrong. I’m not real sure where Cnorman18 or anyone else gets off no that.

When we're talking about the authority of the Bible in the Jewish religion, one wonders where non-Jews who have abundantly demonstrated their ignorance of that religion get off making pronouncements about it.

I can see why a Jewish person would be afraid to walk into a Catholic church because the first thing they would see is a body hanging on the cross, being Jesus. I’m sure the site can be daunting, but people that don’t face their fears will ever be able to live past them.

Presumptious, arrogant and patronizing to an astonishing degree. Notice the implicit claim of the ability to read minds, as well.

Do you think that Jews have never seen a crucifix?

I believe that is why there is so much anger and disgust amongst those of the Jewish community who are not very outspoken about their views and beliefs.

Silly to ask, I know: but please document this "anger and disgust."

They don’t really have much to talk about so they just keep it to themselves.

Please prove that you have this ability to discern the thoughts of millions whom you have never met, know nothing about, and "just keep it to themselves."

Right now, being today, Christians and Muslims are probably a lot closer than Christians and Jewish or Muslims and Jewish people are. Muslims and Christians are actually taking the time to create dialog with one another while Jewish people are just sitting on the sideline.

Please document that ludicrous claim, too. I have been to more interfaith conferences and heard more Muslim and Christian speakers at my synagogue, and others in Dallas, than you could possibly comprehend.

Here's a news flash: You don't get to just make stuff up here because you want it to be true or think it sounds good.

This was the most amazing display of stereotyping, unsupported claims, insults, and flat-out nonsense that I've ever seen on this forum -- and I've been here a long time. Can you prove, or provide evidence for, or document, or reference, a WORD of this post?

[Lux]

Cnorman18 can say whatever he wants, but he is a “former Christian minister� for a reason. That reason is unknown to me, but my guess is because he has lost his faith in Christianity, that is the only logical explanation without hearing his long list of bile rants and excuses. It isn’t hard for people to lose their faith in God, and I don’t blame him for turning away from Christianity either. All I am saying is he seems to be a little confused. Like a lost sheep that has wandered away from the shepherd and his herd.

you can’t talk to Jewish people about their beliefs. They simply don’t care to talk about them or find a deeper understanding of things. Just because a Jewish person criticizes everything there is in the bible and says this or that doesn’t mean they are right and the bible is wrong. I’m not real sure where Cnorman18 or anyone else gets off no that.

I can see why a Jewish person would be afraid to walk into a Catholic church because the first thing they would see is a body hanging on the cross, being Jesus. I’m sure the site can be daunting, but people that don’t face their fears will ever be able to live past them. I believe that is why there is so much anger and disgust amongst those of the Jewish community who are not very outspoken about their views and beliefs. They don’t really have much to talk about so they just keep it to themselves.

Moderator Warning


Personal attacks, uncivil remarks, patronizing statements, unsupported claims... all against the forum rules, and it's not the first time I've read these sort of things coming from you. I strongly suggest you start playing by the rules.

[naz]

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

I couldn’t find the idiots guide to Judaism, so I guess we will have to use you as a reference.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

According to number 10 on your list, people of the Christian faith can talk about Judaism or Jewish beliefs if they understand some of their beliefs, etc. So where would you get off saying Christians have no right to tell Jewish people anything about their beliefs or even discuss them?

[Goat]

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

I couldn’t find the idiots guide to Judaism, so I guess we will have to use you as a reference.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

According to number 10 on your list, people of the Christian faith can talk about Judaism or Jewish beliefs if they understand some of their beliefs, etc. So where would you get off saying Christians have no right to tell Jewish people anything about their beliefs or even discuss them?

There can be people other than Jews that are knowledgeable about the Jewish religion.

However, they do not have the right to dictate to the Jewish people what they 'should' believe. They can discuss them, however, many are willfully ignorant about what the Jewish faith is about, and project that it's "Christianity precursor' or 'Christianity Lite', when it is not.