To the Jew first?

[chameleonz85]

The two-covenant theory has circulated for some years among non-evangelicals and even among some conservative Christians. If you've ever been told that Jews don't need Jesus because they "already have a covenant with God," then you are hearing this theory of salvation, which was developed by Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig early in this century. Gudel, a Lutheran pastor, summarizes the history of the theory and briefly surveys what Jewish and Christian proponents have written. Then he delves into a biblical analysis with an examination of passages such as Romans 1:16, 2:9, and Acts 13:46. He traces the missionary core of Christianity through Jesus, the apostles, and Paul. Gudel then suggests provocatively that promotion of the two-covenant theory is anti-Semitic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHEPJAL_J8
Here is a story of a missionary in Israel

[naz]

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

I couldnt find the idiots guide to Judaism, so I guess we will have to use you as a reference.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

According to number 10 on your list, people of the Christian faith can talk about Judaism or Jewish beliefs if they understand some of their beliefs, etc. So where would you get off saying Christians have no right to tell Jewish people anything about their beliefs or even discuss them?

There can be people other than Jews that are knowledgeable about the Jewish religion.

However, they do not have the right to dictate to the Jewish people what they 'should' believe. They can discuss them, however, many are willfully ignorant about what the Jewish faith is about, and project that it's "Christianity precursor' or 'Christianity Lite', when it is not.

Aye I know that, when I say jewish peoples beliefs I am referring to Judaism or w/e you care to call it.

[WinePusher]

Well, you've gone a lot farther than that with your "five points."

Do you remember how this whole thing got started? I posted those 5 points to another user, and you jumped in and began to say that I was wrong. I haven't overeached those 5 points that I began with.

MOST Jews may believe all of those things -- I, for one, don't -- but in particular, there are no "uniform beliefs by which Jews view God." In Judaism, God is formally called UNDEFINED. I really don't see what's so hard about that.

Ok, there's no issue then on the point of Jewish dogmatism, we agree.

Judaism just isn't like Christianity in that regard; get over it.

"Get over it?" Good rebuttal to an argument that was never made.

So you're saying that Jews can believe whatever they want and still be considered a Jew? And I speak in context of religious Jews, not secular Jews.

So then, why about those 5 points do you disagree with?

On the wikipedia webpage were Maimonides Points, and the Christian webpage were verses from the Old Testament. While Jews may not be literalists and see the bible as the sole source of truth, are you going to say it is not authoritative at all?

In the way that you keep insisting on, that is correct; not at all. Maimonides wasn't considered an Authority even in his own day, and certainly not NEARLY all Jews accept his Points as dogma today.

That is not the point, the point he was a Jewish Thinker is considered an authority on Judaism. He may not be a source of truth for Judaism, but his works carry jsut as much weight as a Catholic Philosopher in Catholicism.

Are you getting this yet? I'm only willing to repeat this so many times.

cnorman, this is a "debating" site, not an "educating other users on your faith" site. I expect much more civility from a moderator then what has been presented in your recent posts.

If I were "admonishing" you for misrepresenting the Jewish religion "simply because [you're] not a Jew," that would be a valid criticism. Unfortunately, that is a falsehood. I was CORRECTING you because you were FACTUALLY WRONG.

1) Me, personally, being a Jew has nothing to do with my understanding of it.

Then you shouldn't have alleged that that was why I was disputing your claims.

Well, I certainly don't believe it but you appear to. Tell me, can a non-Jew speak about Judaism or not?

2) I would think it valid if I said "All Jews Believe" but I didn't. I suggested that the Jewish religion has uniform concepts with their views on God. Unless you can debunk and argue the merits of the topic, they stand.

THERE ARE NO UNIFORM CONCEPTS OF GOD IN THE JEWISH RELIGION. Are we done with that now?

Your yelling and screaming doesn't make you right. Didn't you recently concede that Jews must be monotheistic? Is that not a uniform concept of God in the Jewish religion.

If you want to have that debate again, I'm ready. But I would ask again: How many books, articles, pamphlets, or fricken PAGES have you ever actually read about Judaism that were written by JEWS? My guess was, and remains, "none." Care to dispute that?

If I'm going to be lectured on civility by a moderator, I expect that moderator to be one of the most civil and tolerant users on this forum. Otherwise it would just seem hypocritical. Your inability to debate substantively the issue, and your screaming and neccesity to insult the other debater's knowledge is simply repulsive.

Considering you've never been to my home or seen what is on my bookshelf I would consider this indisputable. But I do have one book "The Idiots Guide to Judaism" by Rabbi Blech, it may not be an orthodox Jewish text but it is by a Rabbi.

I note you say it is "on your bookshelf."

Yes, that is where I normally place the books I have.

Have you READ it?

(sacasm) of course not, I just go out and waste money on books that I never plan to read (/sacasm).

I've been doing this a long time, pardner. If you're going to try to slip one past me, you're going to have to do better than that. I have that book, too, and I see no evidence here that you've ever read a line of it.

Good, now you're passing judgement on the other debater.

Want to ask me the same question -- how many books about Christianity have I ever read that were written by Christians?

Sure, go ahead.

Please do. I'd be willing to bet a year's pay that the answer is "more than you."

I would ask you how you know this?

Just off the top my head, I've read BOOKS from C. S. Lewis, John Stott, Francis Schaeffer, Peter Berger, Hal Lindsey, Watchman Nee, and John fricken Hagee to Karl Barth, Rudolf Bultmann, Paul Tillich, Teilhard de Chardin, Thomas Aquinas, Boethius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, F. F. Bruce, Reinhold and Richard Neibuhr, and I studied directly under Albert Outler, Robert Farmer, and Schubert Ogden. Conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, radical, literalist, whatever. How many of those Christian writers and theologians have you ever even HEARD of?

Well, I've heard of St. Augustive and C.S Lewis. I've read many books by Lewis and translated Augustine's confessions from latin in class. I have only one book by Boethius, and no books by Aquinas (but have read many exerpts). But I must say, I don't know quite a few of those people you mention.

Maybe you should have edited out your last question -- "I would ask you how you know this?" -- before you posted.

1) Well, if you feel the need to demonstrate your supposed "intellectual superiority" to others then go ahead.
2) No, unfortunatley I haven't read every single author and theologian up there.
3) But I will once again ask you how you know that I haven't read the Jewish book? Is that all you're able to argue? You refuse to debate the issue, you rant and scream, you insult the other debaters intelligence, and you're supposed to moderate the dicussions on the forum.

You can speak on Judaism all you want, but you're still talking through your hat --still claiming final authority for documents that don't have it, still making assumptions about Jewish beliefs that aren't warranted -- and you're still pretending I'm criticizing what you say about Judaism because you're not a Jew. I think we've dealt with all that quite enough, and over and over. If you don't get it, I don't think I can help you.

A great attitude when approaching debate. Assume the other debater is beyond help because they have a different opinion then yours. Was this just a meaningless apology? When i apologize for something, I try to reform my behavior also, or else it's just worthless words.

Let's go back to some basics. This is from a post I put up on my second day on this forum, November 12, 2007. It's as true and relevant today as it was then.

Look at what you wrote, I bolded for you.

Ten Things You Didn't Know About Judaism

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today.

Just to get this party started: here are ten things you probably didn't know about Judaism.

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.

2. Belief in Heaven is not particularly important in Judaism anyway. An afterlife is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in a life after death. Those who do, as a rule, do not speculate on what it might be like.

3. Jews are not concerned with "salvation" in the Christian sense. The subject is of very little interest to us. We believe that God is the sole Judge, and that we have no warrant to anticipate His judgment in any way. Our concern is proper conduct in this life; we leave the next life, if there is one, to God.

4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith. We claim to know only how God has chosen to speak to us; if He has chosen to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours.

5. There is no hierarchy in Judaism. There is no Jewish Pope, no Supreme Council, no person or body that is qualified or empowered to make pronouncements on the proper beliefs or practices of Jews. Every congregation is independent; even the broad "movements" in Judaism--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox--are a matter of voluntary association on the part of independent congregations, and have no power to prescribe practice or doctrine. There are advisory committees, but that is their only function.

6. There is no "doctrine" in Judaism anyway. Judaism has no Creed, no Confession of Faith, no list of specified beliefs or articles of faith. "Beliefs" in Judaism are very much a matter of individual choice, and are of relatively little importance anyway. No one much cares what anyone BELIEVES; we are concerned with what they DO.

7. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew." Jews who believe in Jesus are properly called "Christians." There are few, if any, beliefs that Jews are required to hold, but there are a few that are forbidden; and belief in Jesus as the Divine Messiah is one of them.

8. There is no Jewish "race." Though the Jewish religion began with members of a single family, that of Abraham, it has accepted converts from the very beginning, and there are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth. There are communities of Chinese Jews, Indian Jews, Black African Jews, Arab Jews, and Persian Jews that go back for millenia; and very many literal descendants of Abraham (of Ishmael and Esau, to name a son and grandson) are not Jewish.

9. Jews do not generally read the Bible as literal history, and haven't for centuries. The early chapters of Genesis are spiritual and symbolic, and not literal. Tne Hebrew word "Adam" means "Mankind" as well as being a personal name; and Jewish scholars estimated the time of the Creation as being around 15.3 billion years ago--about the same time as modern astrophysicists--at least as early as the first century of the common era. There are very few Jewish "creationists." And it is, after all, OUR Book.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

Cnorman, if you're going to to tell me I haven't read that book then tell me how you know? Asking uncivil questions such as this is not substantive, it's unproductive and its something I would consider a moderator to be above.

[FinalEnigma]

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

I couldnt find the idiots guide to Judaism, so I guess we will have to use you as a reference.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

According to number 10 on your list, people of the Christian faith can talk about Judaism or Jewish beliefs if they understand some of their beliefs, etc. So where would you get off saying Christians have no right to tell Jewish people anything about their beliefs or even discuss them?

Cnorman chooses his words carefully. he said that Christians cannot tell Jews what their beliefs are. they cannot tell Jews about the Jew's beliefs.
That's nonsense anyway. I would have no right to tell you that you are praying to someone other than God when you say 'Hail Mary's.
You simply cannot sit there telling somebody what their beliefs are.
He never objected to discussing Jewish beliefs with anybody.

[naz]

Now chew on all that for a while, actually read the Idiot's Guide to Judaism, and then let's resume this when you're actually prepared to discuss Judaism and not to try to redefine it.

I couldnt find the idiots guide to Judaism, so I guess we will have to use you as a reference.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice; there is none. Closest is the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without the guidance of that tradition.

According to number 10 on your list, people of the Christian faith can talk about Judaism or Jewish beliefs if they understand some of their beliefs, etc. So where would you get off saying Christians have no right to tell Jewish people anything about their beliefs or even discuss them?

Cnorman chooses his words carefully. he said that Christians cannot tell Jews what their beliefs are. they cannot tell Jews about the Jew's beliefs.
That's nonsense anyway. I would have no right to tell you that you are praying to someone other than God when you say 'Hail Mary's.
You simply cannot sit there telling somebody what their beliefs are.
He never objected to discussing Jewish beliefs with anybody.

Really, why wouldn't you? This is debate board you can say w/e the hell you want.
Everything about religion is up for debate on this forum. Why do people insist on not debating it. It seems like a bunch of fucking BULLSHIT if you ask me.

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

Really, why wouldn't you? This is debate board you can say w/e the hell you want.
Everything about religion is up for debate on this forum. Why do people insist on not debating it. It seems like a bunch of ******* ******** if you ask me.

The manner you present yourself in does nothing for the image of Christianity.

[FinalEnigma]

Really, why wouldn't you? This is debate board you can say w/e the hell you want.
Everything about religion is up for debate on this forum. Why do people insist on not debating it. It seems like a bunch of fucking BULLSHIT if you ask me.

Well, I wouldn't because it's simply nonsense to sit there informing people about their beliefs and their religion - especially if it's not your religion.

If I tell you what you believe so that I can use it to discredit or argue against your religion, I'm just wasting time.

[cnorman18]

Somebody else try with these guys. I'm a patient guy, but I'm done.

Now watch for the victory dance...

[naz]

Hey! I know what lets lecture everyone because no one wants to debate the original post and sing a little kumbaya.

[micatala]

Closing the thread.

[Jester]

Moderator Comment

Cnorman18 can say whatever he wants, but he is a former Christian minister for a reason. That reason is unknown to me, but my guess is because he has lost his faith in Christianity, that is the only logical explanation without hearing his long list of bile rants and excuses. It isnt hard for people to lose their faith in God, and I dont blame him for turning away from Christianity either. All I am saying is he seems to be a little confused. Like a lost sheep that has wandered away from the shepherd and his herd.

As per the rules, personal comments about other posters are not allowed. Beyond that, I think it is safe to say that neither you (nor I) have enough information about cnorman to draw these kinds of conclusions.
Debate the topic, not the person.