Lets cut to the chase: Why should I be a Christian?

[notachance]

If you're a theist and are active on a forum called "Debating Christianity & Religion", then you probably believe that the value of Christianity is something that can be spoken for.

So here is the situation: I don't want you to tell me why you believe. I understand that for many of you, it has to do with a feeling in your heart, or inexpressible faith, or something along those lines, which would be hard to verbalize and to formulate into a cogent case for Christianity. As respectable a that is, and as good a reason it may be for you to believe, it doesn't help me.

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

Given the fact that I don't share with you that emotional connection with Christianity, given that I don't feel the presence of Jesus in my heart like you do, given that I guide my decision making and my opinion forming by rationality and common sense, what can you tell me along those lines to persuade me that Christianity is the way to go?

Why should I be a Christian? What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

[Zzyzx]

.

Why should I be a Christian?

You should be a Christian if:

You fear death and want to alleviate that fear with belief in an "afterlife".
You miss Grandma and want to see her again in "heaven"
You seek external structure and guidance for your life
You want decisions to be made for you
You like the feeling of guilt (for "sinning")
You like the idea of being "forgiven" by "god" for anything you do in life
You think that donkeys and snakes converse with humans
You want simple "explanations" for natural phenomena and events ('goddidit")
You want to blame your mistakes on a "devil" or "demon" rather than taking responsibility.
You distrust education that poses questions regarding religious dogma
You want to socialize on "sabbath" days
You want to feel superior to people who do not share your beliefs
You want an excuse to cover your personal hatreds ("the bible says so")
You think that ancient people knew TRUTH and modern people (especially scientists) are misguided, mistaken, or deliberately misleading.

What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

You can get many of the benefits without actually believing. Just go through the motions and convince "fellow Christians" that you believe the god talk. They may not believe it any more than you do, but you can socialize and sympathize with each other and pray together.

[McCulloch]

Now back to the original question.

Thank you for that. Sometimes we get lost chasing down the rabbit hole of the details of an argument.

I believe that being a Christian is a choice to be made based on both reason and faith.

Thank you for your opinion on that. I agree with half of that. I disagree with the reason part.

To me the Bible presents a Moral order

Do you really think that the moral order presented in the Bible is so much greater than the moral order that those without the Bible manage to live by? Examples please.

[To me the Bible presents a] history that has a lot of proof but is not beyond doubt.

This is debate, so I will have to take you to task about your use of words. I think, and I may be wrong, that you meant evidence when you used the word proof. If there is proof, then it must be beyond reasonable doubt, that's what proof means.

So that a person must choose either to doubt or believe.

How does that work? I don't think that I can choose what I believe. If someone presents a convincing argument for something, then I will believe it. I cannot choose to believe stuff. Can you?

I believe there is enough evidence to believe that the Bible could be true.

Wonderful. Bring it on. I do not believe that there is enough evidence for a reasonable person to conclude that the Bible is true.

I believe the Bible and Christianity has shaped some of the greatest events and actions in human history.

On this we agree. But then again so did John Locke, Mohammed, Karl Marx and that other guy invoked by Godwin's Law.

I see that the misuse of Religion has caused great harm when it goes against the basic tenets of Christianity no matter who the person is who replaces Bible Christianity with their own decisions.

You mean the folks who keep money back from the offering, use violence, eat shellfish, take oaths, repeat prayers and don't beat disrespectful offspring?

I see that those who follow the Bible are happier, healthier, better mentally adjusted and live longer lives and help their neighbors more then others.

You got any statistical evidence to back that up?

No one gets out of this life alive.

Well, I cannot disagree with this. It is tautologically true.

Christianity offers a reasonable hope that can be found no where else.

Really? It looks like wishful thinking to me.

Disbelief of the bible is based on the supposition that the writers are liars which cannot be proved.

Do you believe every tale of miraculous events? I don't.

There are portions of the Bible that show insight, medical knowledge and prophecy that cannot be explained away.

Really. Could you cite no more than four of the best examples that cannot be explained away?

I do not believe spontaneous generation,

Good. Neither do the biologists of today. The original origin of life is still a mystery, but we have a number of workable ideas. None of them are that the intelligent creator of the entire universe, focused on this one small planet, shaped a human from dust and breathed life into him.

adaptability can explain the diversity of life that I see.

This is known as the argument from ignorance or incredulity. The more you learn about evolution, the more you can see that it can explain the diversity of life.

[AquinasD]

You should be a Christian if:

You fear death and want to alleviate that fear with belief in an "afterlife".
You miss Grandma and want to see her again in "heaven"
You seek external structure and guidance for your life
You want decisions to be made for you
You like the feeling of guilt (for "sinning")
You like the idea of being "forgiven" by "god" for anything you do in life
You think that donkeys and snakes converse with humans
You want simple "explanations" for natural phenomena and events ('goddidit")
You want to blame your mistakes on a "devil" or "demon" rather than taking responsibility.
You distrust education that poses questions regarding religious dogma
You want to socialize on "sabbath" days
You want to feel superior to people who do not share your beliefs
You want an excuse to cover your personal hatreds ("the bible says so")
You think that ancient people knew TRUTH and modern people (especially scientists) are misguided, mistaken, or deliberately misleading.

Zzyzx, what do you think about my argument against psychologization as given here in this thread?

[Zzyzx]

.

Zzyzx, what do you think about my argument against psychologization as given here in this thread?

I am underwhelmed -- as others seem to be. You have one reply in that thread and you are talking to yourself.

Would you care to debate any topics related to Christianity? Can you show that any of the "miracle" or "supernatural" claims for religious icons or characters are true as implied in the stories from promotional literature?

[notachance]

There are portions of the Bible that show insight, medical knowledge and prophecy that cannot be explained away

Dear Samuel,
If you can show me ONE example of insight, medical knowledge or prophecy that CANNOT be explained away, I will become a believer. For the rest of my life, I will spend every fiber of my being to saving as many people as possible. I will donate my entire net worth to a church of your choice and spend my life as Jesus would want me to.

All you need to do is give me the BEST example in the Bible of "insight, medical knowledge or prophecy that cannot be explained".

Now, listen very carefully. I don't want you to send me a link to a website with 100 examples. I want YOU to select the example that you believe is the BEST ONE, and present it to me.

Thank you very much

[samuelbb7]

.

Why should I be a Christian?

You should be a Christian if:

You fear death and want to alleviate that fear with belief in an "afterlife".
You miss Grandma and want to see her again in "heaven"
You seek external structure and guidance for your life
You want decisions to be made for you
You like the feeling of guilt (for "sinning")
You like the idea of being "forgiven" by "god" for anything you do in life
You think that donkeys and snakes converse with humans
You want simple "explanations" for natural phenomena and events ('goddidit")
You want to blame your mistakes on a "devil" or "demon" rather than taking responsibility.
You distrust education that poses questions regarding religious dogma
You want to socialize on "sabbath" days
You want to feel superior to people who do not share your beliefs
You want an excuse to cover your personal hatreds ("the bible says so")
You think that ancient people knew TRUTH and modern people (especially scientists) are misguided, mistaken, or deliberately misleading.

What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

You can get many of the benefits without actually believing. Just go through the motions and convince "fellow Christians" that you believe the god talk. They may not believe it any more than you do, but you can socialize and sympathize with each other and pray together.

It is correct you can get many of the benefits without actually believing but the list above that includes misstatements about biblical Christianity.

So it is true fear of death is relieved by a belief in an afterlife. But many nonchristians believe in an afterlife. Think of Ghosts.

True I would like to see my missed loved ones. Do you not miss those you love?

External structure is all around us. It is called the Government. the Bible wants us to internalize the love of others so we do not want to do wrong.

GOD has never made a decision for me. So why do you think he would make them for you? There are many people who want to make decisions for you so it is not GOD wanting to make decisions for others but humans. GOD wants us to decide to do right because it is the loving and right thing to do.

I guess there are people who never feel guilty for doing something wrong. But I do not know any. I believe that most people feel guilt for doing the wrong thing. So even atheists feel guilt. Am I wrong that you feel fine about hurting other people?

I do like forgiveness. But it requires repentance to really work where you try to make amends and stop doing wrong.

I believe that demons can use animals to converse with humans or that a miracle can allow it.. But I know my dog talks to me. He tells me it is time to feed him and take him for a walk.

Actually natural phenomenon follow the laws of GOD and his creation. I believe the Universe follows natural laws unless GOD specifically intervenes which he does rarely. I believe and many Scientist in history have studied nature to find the laws of GOD and so understand Him better. Have your read the writing of many early Scientists? I also do not think that it happened by accident or nature did it is a good explanation for events that so unlikely that no one can figure out how they could have happened. I also tend to believe in Murpheys law that things will go wrong not happen right.

I do not believe a Flip Wilson comedy routine accurately portrays the responsiblity of our actions that the Bible says. I am not to blame anyone but myself for my actions. Not my parents or friends. The Bible points to us that we are responsible for what we do. A position some Atheists oppose.

Why should I distrust education since I have a College degree? I have no problem with questions otherwise I would not be here. True some are so weak in what they believe they do not tolerate challenges to their belief system or lack of a belief system. I have had Atheist yell at me for challenging their belief system.

Actually I like to socialize every day. Do you think it is wrong to like to be around other people and talk to them?

As a Christians I realize that I cannot be superior to anyone. I am a sinner who needs help from GOD. I have talked and read a number of Atheists who talk about how superior they are to us who believe. Now it is true some who are Christians think they are superior. But JESUS faced that problem with religionists who opposed him.

JESUS said if you hate anyone you will not be allowed in Heaven. It is in the LORDS prayer that you must forgive everyone. I do have trouble not hating murders, and those who prey on other human beings like drug pushers and pimps.

There are many truths in the Bible that modern Scientist can agree to. But I understand that a person who does not believe in GOD would not accept miracles because he would consider them impossible. So I take into account the assumptions of everyone's work I read. In History studies that is very important and it seems to me to work for everything.

[Zzyzx]

.

It is correct you can get many of the benefits without actually believing but the list above that includes misstatements about biblical Christianity.

Okay, let's examine in further detail and compare Christian responses to those of a Non-Theist:

1
Christian: So it is true fear of death is relieved by a belief in an afterlife. But many nonchristians believe in an afterlife. Think of Ghosts.

Non-Theist: Thank you. Religion, belief in ghosts, and "reincarnation" may alleviate fear of death. Than is my point.

2
Christian: True I would like to see my missed loved ones. Do you not miss those you love?

Non-Theist: I ACCEPT that those who I loved that have died are DEAD. I have no need to wish that I would see them again in an "afterlife".

3
Christian: External structure is all around us. It is called the Government.

Non-Theist: All of us experience a certain amount of external structure, including government and society. Some of us want MORE structure " provided by religious practices or even incarceration. I, personally, option for the maximum personal / individual freedom available when and were I live (and chose Arkansas as a place to live partially because it is a state that is not overly bureaucratically controlled (i.e., I can build what I choose on rural property without permits and inspections " which is NOT possible in most states).

4
Christian: the Bible wants us to internalize the love of others so we do not want to do wrong.

Non-Theist: I have seen no indication that those who claim to follow the bible "internalize the love of others" any more than anyone else. Is it something more than a pipe dream?

5
Christian: GOD has never made a decision for me. So why do you think he would make them for you?

Non-Theist: What makes you think that I might think that a "god" would make a decision for me? I have no such expectation. Are you talking to someone else?

6
Christian: There are many people who want to make decisions for you so it is not GOD wanting to make decisions for others but humans. GOD wants us to decide to do right because it is the loving and right thing to do.

Non-Theist: How do you KNOW exactly what "god" wants?

7
Christian: I guess there are people who never feel guilty for doing something wrong. But I do not know any. I believe that most people feel guilt for doing the wrong thing.

Non-Theist: People who feel no guilt are known as "sociopaths" (or a more modern term)

8
Christian: So even atheists feel guilt.

Non-Theist: Humans feel "guilt" (or whatever it may be called) for violating what they understand and/or accept as acceptable behavior. That does not require a religious belief.

9
Christian: Am I wrong that you feel fine about hurting other people?

Non-Theist: Of course you are wrong. Do you have an agenda of being wrong?

10
Christian: I do like forgiveness.

Non-Theist: Of course you do. That is the Christian "get out of jail free card" " just beg forgiveness and "repent" and you still get to go to heaven after you die.

11
Christian: But it requires repentance to really work where you try to make amends and stop doing wrong.

Non-Theist: If a serial murder / rapist "repents" and asks forgiveness in the last ten seconds of his life, is he "forgiven"?

12
Christian: I believe that demons can use animals to converse with humans or that a miracle can allow it..

Non-Theist: Thank you. According to Christian lore, "god" can also use animals to converse with humans " so a talking donkey or snake MAY be a "god" or a "demon".

13
Christian: But I know my dog talks to me. He tells me it is time to feed him and take him for a walk.

Non-Theist: Does your dog CONVERSE with you as the donkey and serpent supposedly did in bible stories?

14
Christian: Actually natural phenomenon follow the laws of GOD and his creation.

Non-Theist: Natural phenomenon are NATRUAL. No "god" is required to "explain" Earth processes " from rain to volcanoes to tsunami.

15
Christian: I believe the Universe follows natural laws unless GOD specifically intervenes which he does rarely.

Non-Theist: How can it be determined when "god intervenes" in natural events?

16
Christian: I believe and many Scientist in history have studied nature to find the laws of GOD and so understand Him better.

Non-Theist: Science studies nature. No scientific studies (to the best of my knowledge) have discovered any "laws of god". Perhaps you (generic term) can show which "laws" are from "god"?

17
Christian: Have your read the writing of many early Scientists?

Non-Theist: I have read some writings of early scientists. To what do you refer?

18
Christian: I also do not think that it happened by accident or nature did it is a good explanation for events that so unlikely that no one can figure out how they could have happened.

Non-Theist: Unlikely events happen. A woman in Texas won the state lottery four times for more than a million dollars each. Unlikely? Sure. Does that require a "god"?

19
Christian: I also tend to believe in Murpheys law that things will go wrong not happen right.

Non-Theist: My view of life is more positive. Some things go wrong " but many things go right, particularly if one plans and works in positive directions.

20
Christian: I do not believe a Flip Wilson comedy routine accurately portrays the responsiblity of our actions that the Bible says.

Non-Theist: I prefer Bill Cosby's rendition of "Noah" " which I regard as hilarious (even though I do not participate in entertainment activities)

21
Christian: I am not to blame anyone but myself for my actions. Not my parents or friends. The Bible points to us that we are responsible for what we do.

Non-Theist: I also hold myself responsible for ALL outcomes of ALL of my decisions and actions. However, I do not need a "bible" to tell me to take responsibility.

22
Christian: A position some Atheists oppose.

Non-Theist: Some Christians and some Atheists oppose daylight savings time too, SO WHAT?

23
Christian: Why should I distrust education since I have a College degree?

Non-Theist: We share some interest in higher education. I retired as a tenured university professor in Earth sciences. In what field is your degree?

24
Christian: I have no problem with questions otherwise I would not be here.

Non-Theist: Perhaps you could answer ten questions recently asked of Christians. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=17723

25
Christian: True some are so weak in what they believe they do not tolerate challenges to their belief system or lack of a belief system.

Non-Theist: A great deal of resentment is expressed in these threads by Theists whose claims (from belief system) are challenged.

26
Christian: I have had Atheist yell at me for challenging their belief system.

Non-Theist: What "Atheist belief system" were you challenging?

27
Christian: Actually I like to socialize every day. Do you think it is wrong to like to be around other people and talk to them?

Non-Theist: I socialize frequently with a wide variety of people " not focusing upon those whose theological position matches mine " and even attend Unitarian Universalist services on rare occasion.

28
Christian: As a Christians I realize that I cannot be superior to anyone.

Non-Theist: Perhaps you can influence many who post here and who promote their religion elsewhere " who DO claim to be superior " including "saved", "chosen", "elect", "god's own", etc

29
Christian: I am a sinner who needs help from GOD.

Non-Theist: Since the concept of "sin" (breaking god's rules) does not apply to Non-Theists, I am not a "sinner". My actions are not perfect, but I do pretty well (if I do say so myself).

30
Christian: I have talked and read a number of Atheists who talk about how superior they are to us who believe.

Non-Theist: Can you quote verbatim and cite those anonymous "Atheists" " or is that just your "recollection"?

31
Christian: Now it is true some who are Christians think they are superior.

Non-Theist: Thank you.

32
Christian: But JESUS faced that problem with religionists who opposed him.

Non-Theist: So goes the tale. Jesus, if he existed, was probably a "rebellious" Jewish preacher " who may have been executed for irritating the wrong people.

33
Christian: JESUS said if you hate anyone you will not be allowed in Heaven.

Non-Theist: Jesus is credited with having said a LOT of things, some of which are irrational. It is not possible to know what words were actually his " since they were not recorded by anonymous gospel writers for decades or generations after they were supposedly spoken. Were they recorded EXACTLY as spoken?

34
Christian: It is in the LORDS prayer that you must forgive everyone. I do have trouble not hating murders, and those who prey on other human beings like drug pushers and pimps.

Non-Theist: Not to worry. If only those who have never hated anyone are allowed in "heaven" there won't be many "souls" there.

35
Christian: There are many truths in the Bible that modern Scientist can agree to.

Non-Theist: As one who as studied, applied and taught sciences, I see FAR more conflict between bible stories and science than I see agreement " including a worldwide flood, virgins giving birth, a star stopping over a location, water turning into wine, seas parting and storms calming on command, dead bodies coming back to life after days in the grave, etc.

36
Christian: But I understand that a person who does not believe in GOD would not accept miracles because he would consider them impossible.

Non-Theist: I am willing to consider "miracles" IF someone SHOWS me one. Don't just tell me tales about "once upon a time, long ago and far away" people SAY that things happened.

37
Christian: So I take into account the assumptions of everyone's work I read.

Non-Theist: In sciences a very strong effort is made to minimize "assumptions". The "Scientific Method" specifically requires that information, methods, and conclusions of any study be made available for critique, criticism, disproof, dispute, verification, or whatever of anyone interested.

38
Christian: In History studies that is very important and it seems to me to work for everything.[/quote]

Non-Theist: The methods of historical analysis do not "work for everything".

[notachance]

Hi Samuel, I see you're online, and busy writing lengthy posts on my thread.

Can you please take a quick second to provide me with an example of "insight, medical knowledge or prophecy in the Bible that CANNOT be explained away"?

This is my 2nd time asking you, and McCulloch already asked you once.

1 Peter 3:15 requires that you "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."

I earnestly hope that you would take the opportunity to honor this commandment today.

Alternatively, you could choose to obey Exodus 20:16, and admit that no such example exists.

Up to you.

[fortheloveofpeace]

[quote="notachance"]
Can you please take a quick second to provide me with an example of "insight, medical knowledge or prophecy in the Bible that CANNOT be explained away"?

I would like some clarification as to what sort of evidence this is actually referring.
However, there are a couple of examples that come to mind.

As for medical: How do you explain away the healing of the man born blind? In John 9, Jesus restored a man's sight by spitting in the ground to make mud, wiping it in the man's eyes, and telling him to wash it off in a river. The Bible says that the man born blind came home seeing.

Secondly, how do you explain away the prophecies of Isaiah? This man wrote his book (Isaiah) like 700 or 800 years before Jesus' birth. All throughout the book, the prophet Isaiah accurately foretold many details about the coming messiah, including the virgin birth and lineage of David.

[samuelbb7]

Hi Samuel,

Can you please take a quick second to provide me with an example of "insight, medical knowledge or prophecy in the Bible that CANNOT be explained away"?

This is my 2nd time asking you, and McCulloch already asked you once.

Up to you.

I apologize I was not reading down enough in the messages. I have not been here in awhile and I should have done better.

I do not know what your knowledge of Medical history is. I am going to guess that you have some and or are willing to do a little research. There is an old book called "None of these Diseases" I do not know if it is still in print but if you wish I can give you some more up to date resources.

First GOD gave a list of animals to not eat. These animals are known for spreading diseases that still plague mankind today.

The Bible says such common sense laws as wash your hands before you eat. Wash after touching a dead person. These are common sense today yet still about 30% of the people in they U. S. do not wash their hands before they eat or after they use the restroom. Doctors in the 19 century commonly examined dead bodies and then living patients.

There a series of laws about sanitation such as burying waste and not using rivers.

Laws about how to deal with the spread of communicable disease and that certain molds were dangerous. That metal object could cleansed with fire but that wooden or clay could not be.

By the way I accept your point about me answering and that I should not bear false witness. I should also check better and read more.