Lets cut to the chase: Why should I be a Christian?

[notachance]

If you're a theist and are active on a forum called "Debating Christianity & Religion", then you probably believe that the value of Christianity is something that can be spoken for.

So here is the situation: I don't want you to tell me why you believe. I understand that for many of you, it has to do with a feeling in your heart, or inexpressible faith, or something along those lines, which would be hard to verbalize and to formulate into a cogent case for Christianity. As respectable a that is, and as good a reason it may be for you to believe, it doesn't help me.

I want you to tell me why I should believe.

Given the fact that I don't share with you that emotional connection with Christianity, given that I don't feel the presence of Jesus in my heart like you do, given that I guide my decision making and my opinion forming by rationality and common sense, what can you tell me along those lines to persuade me that Christianity is the way to go?

Why should I be a Christian? What can you say to persuade me that what you believe is true?

[notachance]

Then Daniel says the Next kingdom is represented by silver. Latter on in another Passage Daniel states that the second Kingdom is Media Persia. Daniel 8:20 This even happened in the life of Daniel. So most do not look on it as good evidence for prophecy.

The Third kingdom is Grecia. This happened after the death of Daniel. Again the prophecy is given in two parts one in Daniel 2 and the second more specific in Daniel 8:21. In order to get the full details both prophecies have to be put together. They use different images so some find it a little confusing.

In Daniel 2 he speaks of four main kingdoms using a giant statue. In Daniel 8 he speaks of two kingdoms with the second being established by a great king represented by a single horn But that king will die and his kingdom will be split up. The Jews understood the prophecy to refer to Alexander the Great and so when he came they did not resist him. That is found in Jewish History not recorded in the Bible.

Now the fourth kingdom is not specifically named but it is called an Iron Kingdom and rules until the Messiah arrives. The Kingdom is Rome which overthrew the Greek Empire.

However this fourth powerful kingdom would be broken into pieces and these parts would try to reunite by marriage but it would fail. These parts would be strong and weak kingdoms formed from the fall of the fourth kingdom.

Now these kingdom do not refer to the whole world. But to those that had a relationship to Israel and the Messiah to come.

Now hopefully this time I have explained myself properly. Maybe this website will help since it gives a lot more detail.

Ok, Ok, I understand now. I still have several reasons to dispute that this is a prophecy, and will get to them. But I concede that I was missing a piece of the puzzle, and that now I understand it: The Book of Daniel actually mentions Media Persia and Grecia in other portions of the book. I did not know that. Live and learn

Now, I have a couple of questions.

The first and most important one is this: In which museum is the oldest existing copy of the book of daniel being held? How old is that copy?

[samuelbb7]

Ok, Ok, I understand now. I still have several reasons to dispute that this is a prophecy, and will get to them. But I concede that I was missing a piece of the puzzle, and that now I understand it: The Book of Daniel actually mentions Media Persia and Grecia in other portions of the book. I did not know that. Live and learn

Now, I have a couple of questions.

The first and most important one is this: In which museum is the oldest existing copy of the book of daniel being held? How old is that copy?

I am answering this quickly off the top of my head. My life has been very busy lately. The Museum in Israel where they keep the Dead Sea Scrolls which date from 300 to 200 BCE is the oldest existing copy. But there are refences to the book that date back much further. It should be noted the next oldest copy is from about 500 CE yet there is no major differences in the text except a couple of spelling problems.

[notachance]

Ok, Ok, I understand now. I still have several reasons to dispute that this is a prophecy, and will get to them. But I concede that I was missing a piece of the puzzle, and that now I understand it: The Book of Daniel actually mentions Media Persia and Grecia in other portions of the book. I did not know that. Live and learn

Now, I have a couple of questions.

The first and most important one is this: In which museum is the oldest existing copy of the book of daniel being held? How old is that copy?

I am answering this quickly off the top of my head. My life has been very busy lately. The Museum in Israel where they keep the Dead Sea Scrolls which date from 300 to 200 BCE is the oldest existing copy. But there are refences to the book that date back much further. It should be noted the next oldest copy is from about 500 CE yet there is no major differences in the text except a couple of spelling problems.

Actually, you're factually incorrect.

Please see this.

There are only 8 fragments of Daniel in the dead sea scrolls: 1Q71, 1Q72, 4Q112, 4Q113, 4Q114, 4Q115, 4Q116 and 6Q7

NONE OF THESE FRAGMENTS CONTAIN DANIEL 2, except for 4Q112, which only contains up to Dan 2:33.

In other words, the prophecy you brought to my attention IS NOT IN THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.

I'll repeat that, because it's very, very, very important:

The Dead Sea Scroll do not contain the prophecy in question.


So let's recap the situation:

You brought to my attention a "prophecy" written in the Bible, in Daniel 2:31-45.

I am asking you this: Where is the oldest document containing those words being held? When was that document written?

You answered "The Dead Sea Scrolls". That answer is wrong. None of the DSS contain that "prophecy" except for 4Q112, which only contains the first dozen words of it.

Would you like to give it another shot, or do you want me to just tell you?

How about I give you a hint: The name of the oldest document containing that "prophecy" starts with the word "Codex", it is now being held in the smallest country in the world, and it was written three hundred+ years after the death of a famous Jewish carpenter.

Take a guess!


Ah, screw it! I'll just tell you. It's the Codex Vaticanus! Written in the mid 4th century by an anonymous scribe!

So, let's recap the situation one more time:

We have a book written in 350 AD which supposedly accurately describes major historical events that happened centuries earlier.

Now, please explain why you claim that the person who wrote this historic account would have magical superpowers.

My nephew is in 3rd grade and recently wrote a little essay about how Christopher Columbus discovered America. So he too wrote a semi-accurate description of major historical events that happened centuries earlier. Does my nephew have supernatural magical superpowers too?

[Flail]

mormon boy wrote:

Firstly is this and this should be applied to every religion. The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier. If Christianity doesn't do that for you, thats fine, find something else.

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

[notachance]

mormon boy wrote:

Firstly is this and this should be applied to every religion. The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier. If Christianity doesn't do that for you, thats fine, find something else.

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

I think you're forming in your head an image of this Jesus fellow that is just as inflated and unwarranted as the Christian's view of him as the Son of God.

I doubt he was some kind of religious abolitionist, or that he had any particularly awesome message to deliver or that he would burn churches.

If he ever existed, he was likely just a confused carpenter who thought the world would end within a few years. And two millennia later here we are still taking his confused ramblings seriously.

[Flail]

mormon boy wrote:

Firstly is this and this should be applied to every religion. The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier. If Christianity doesn't do that for you, thats fine, find something else.

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

I think you're forming in your head an image of this Jesus fellow that is just as inflated and unwarranted as the Christian's view of him as the Son of God.

I doubt he was some kind of religious abolitionist, or that he had any particularly awesome message to deliver or that he would burn churches.

If he ever existed, he was likely just a confused carpenter who thought the world would end within a few years. And two millennia later here we are still taking his confused ramblings seriously.

Well, I would have to agree...for the most part...just trying to make a point.

[notachance]

mormon boy wrote:

Firstly is this and this should be applied to every religion. The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier. If Christianity doesn't do that for you, thats fine, find something else.

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

I think you're forming in your head an image of this Jesus fellow that is just as inflated and unwarranted as the Christian's view of him as the Son of God.

I doubt he was some kind of religious abolitionist, or that he had any particularly awesome message to deliver or that he would burn churches.

If he ever existed, he was likely just a confused carpenter who thought the world would end within a few years. And two millennia later here we are still taking his confused ramblings seriously.

Well, I would have to agree...for the most part...just trying to make a point.

Gotcha.

[Kuan]

Hey dude, I appreciate your response.

The heart of your statement is this: "The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier"

That it should make you better. Yes that is the main focus, but that is not the only one.

But here's the question:
Are you saying that whether something is true or not doesn't matter? It's all just about whether a belief makes you happy?

Well, ignorance is bliss. Well, I think that the truth would be found in the religion that makes you happy. (This example on really applies to christian and some other religions) but I find it hard to think that if there is a god that he would create us just to be miserable.

If believing that I won the lottery makes me happy and makes me a generous person, then it doesn't matter if it's TRUE that I actually won the lottery?

Well, the truth is that the truth does matter, but I cant decide what you should believe.

And what if a fact is true, but it doesn't make me happy, but instead makes me sad? For example, should I believe that I am still 20 years old just because the thought that I'm 30 makes me sad?

Yes. Actualy its another good point. Then again maybe its just the facts that are way important that matter, not really how old we are. Im not really sure though, I believe that truth will make us happy. But im only 19 so dont take my word, im not quite that wise yet.

To me it seems that believing something because it makes you happy, rather than believing it because there is good reason to think it is actually true, is called "being delusional".

Good definition for delusional. The only factor in truth isnt only how happy it makes us, but also includes some other factors.

We should try to be good people and we should try to live a happy life WITHOUT believing things that are not true. It takes courage and it takes intellectual honesty, but I think it can be done.

It takes alot to admit your wrong. I agree, but then again it leads to this question. What is true? I believe I have it, but so does every other person in the world. All I can say is make a choice and do your best.

Who cares if believing that Mary was a virgin makes you happy! It's not true. Find your happiness in the real world.

This would probably be one of those things that would fit under un-important. Find your happiness in the real world is something I completely agree with but what is the real world?

[Kuan]

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

Well I agree, what if we had both ME and OTHERS in there? I have no problem with that, neither do the christian scriptures.

[riverslivnwtr]

mormon boy wrote:

Firstly is this and this should be applied to every religion. The religion you belong to should make you a better person and make you happier. If Christianity doesn't do that for you, thats fine, find something else.

These do seem to be the goals of Christianity....To make ME a better person....To make ME happy. To save ME. To comfort ME. To forgive MY sins. To answer MY prayers. To grant ME eternal life. Can we find anything more selfish than Christianity?

If you substitute OTHERS for ME, you would begin to approach the philosophy propounded by the Jesus character in the NT, a philosophy far divergent from Christianity. Neither Jesus nor his Jewish disciples were intent on forming a new religion, but perhaps on ridding us of religion. I don't think that Jesus, were he alive today, would be a Christian. If Jesus is God, and if He does return, hopefully his first act will be to burn down all the churches.

When Jesus came he established a religion which was designed to use me against myself to get his desired results...without me there can be no thee.. Jesus is alive and living in ME which is his sole design....to make me a new creature in Him, which makes ME better off, causing ME to find contentment in ETERNAL LIFE !
which will make OTHERS better off with my own testimony of his resurrection which is true..


By the way comforting me is a very big thing with Jesus..it is by the comforter that I know him; as he promised..in John 14:6 saying, and I will pray the Father and he will give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive..