Atheism and morality vs. Christianity and morality

[Confused]

I have often heard that atheists are amoral and that Christianity offers the way to morality. This thread is quite simple then I guess.

1) Is there any evidence to link atheism and amorality? What?
2) Is there any evidence to link atheism and morality? What?
3) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and amorality? What?
4) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and morality? What?

[Goat]

If it works don't fix it.

Thats the boat I'm in.

An atheist that fully subscribes to the morality he learned as a christian.

Morality existed long before Christianity. Christianity or "God's law" is simply human logic, reason and common sense producing moral laws which some people later ascribe to deities.

Perhaps.
IMO they still nailed it.

Slavery is o.k. with you then? Also inequality of the sexes?

See I missed those messages when I was a christian.
Believe it or not.

No slavery.
No inequality of the sexes.

We tended to focus on love.
Peace.
Compassion.
Do unto others.

What can I say, that is what I got out of it.

I would go out on a limb and say for the most part slavery and inequality of the sexes is a non-issue for most christians.

Its an atheist focus point? Not so much a christian one?

It shows that modern 'Christian morality' is not the 'Christian Morality' of 200 or 300 years ago. That shows that morality for Christians has changed, and that by cherry picking, you can justify anything.

[Autodidact]

If it works don't fix it.

Thats the boat I'm in.

An atheist that fully subscribes to the morality he learned as a christian.

Morality existed long before Christianity. Christianity or "God's law" is simply human logic, reason and common sense producing moral laws which some people later ascribe to deities.

Perhaps.
IMO they still nailed it.

Slavery is o.k. with you then? Also inequality of the sexes?

See I missed those messages when I was a christian.
Believe it or not.

No slavery.
No inequality of the sexes.

We tended to focus on love.
Peace.
Compassion.
Do unto others.

What can I say, that is what I got out of it.

I would go out on a limb and say for the most part slavery and inequality of the sexes is a non-issue for most christians.

Its an atheist focus point? Not so much a christian one?

And yet it's there in the scriptures loud and clear. Lots of NT endorsement of both of these venerable institutions. I suggest that it may not be Christian morality you learned, just plain old morality, presented in a Christian context. Because Biblical morality is clear that slavery is fine, and women should be second-class citizens.

With atheism, there is no support for these positions. As a result, most modern Atheists oppose both of them.

[David 2.0]

If it works don't fix it.

Thats the boat I'm in.

An atheist that fully subscribes to the morality he learned as a christian.

Morality existed long before Christianity. Christianity or "God's law" is simply human logic, reason and common sense producing moral laws which some people later ascribe to deities.

Perhaps.
IMO they still nailed it.

Slavery is o.k. with you then? Also inequality of the sexes?

See I missed those messages when I was a christian.
Believe it or not.

No slavery.
No inequality of the sexes.

We tended to focus on love.
Peace.
Compassion.
Do unto others.

What can I say, that is what I got out of it.

I would go out on a limb and say for the most part slavery and inequality of the sexes is a non-issue for most christians.

Its an atheist focus point? Not so much a christian one?

It shows that modern 'Christian morality' is not the 'Christian Morality' of 200 or 300 years ago. That shows that morality for Christians has changed, and that by cherry picking, you can justify anything.

I can only speak from my experiance.

The reoccuring theme in the bible was love for me.
Not slavery.

Perhaps I cherry picked, perhaps I went with the reoccuring theme.
Context. Overall message.

I am an atheist that sees value in christian morality. Shoot me.

[Autodidact]

If it works don't fix it.

Thats the boat I'm in.

An atheist that fully subscribes to the morality he learned as a christian.

Morality existed long before Christianity. Christianity or "God's law" is simply human logic, reason and common sense producing moral laws which some people later ascribe to deities.

Perhaps.
IMO they still nailed it.

Slavery is o.k. with you then? Also inequality of the sexes?

See I missed those messages when I was a christian.
Believe it or not.

No slavery.
No inequality of the sexes.

We tended to focus on love.
Peace.
Compassion.
Do unto others.

What can I say, that is what I got out of it.

I would go out on a limb and say for the most part slavery and inequality of the sexes is a non-issue for most christians.

Its an atheist focus point? Not so much a christian one?

It shows that modern 'Christian morality' is not the 'Christian Morality' of 200 or 300 years ago. That shows that morality for Christians has changed, and that by cherry picking, you can justify anything.

I can only speak from my experiance.

The reoccuring theme in the bible was love for me.
Not slavery.

Perhaps I cherry picked, perhaps I went with the reoccuring theme.
Context. Overall message.

I am an atheist that sees value in christian morality. Shoot me.

Slavery is also a recurring theme that occurs quite often. As Rev. Phelps likes to remind us (and, unlike you, he's an ordained Christian minister) YHWH is a god of hate as well as love. I submit what you have is in fact a secular morality that you used to screen or interpret what's in the Bible.

Christian morality includes slavery. Slavery is permitted, even authorized. Is that your morality? If not, then you don't agree with Christian morality. You have chosen the parts that accord with a secular morality.

[David 2.0]

If it works don't fix it.

Thats the boat I'm in.

An atheist that fully subscribes to the morality he learned as a christian.

Morality existed long before Christianity. Christianity or "God's law" is simply human logic, reason and common sense producing moral laws which some people later ascribe to deities.

Perhaps.
IMO they still nailed it.

Slavery is o.k. with you then? Also inequality of the sexes?

See I missed those messages when I was a christian.
Believe it or not.

No slavery.
No inequality of the sexes.

We tended to focus on love.
Peace.
Compassion.
Do unto others.

What can I say, that is what I got out of it.

I would go out on a limb and say for the most part slavery and inequality of the sexes is a non-issue for most christians.

Its an atheist focus point? Not so much a christian one?

It shows that modern 'Christian morality' is not the 'Christian Morality' of 200 or 300 years ago. That shows that morality for Christians has changed, and that by cherry picking, you can justify anything.

I can only speak from my experience.

The reoccurring theme in the bible was love for me.
Not slavery.

Perhaps I cherry picked, perhaps I went with the reoccurring theme.
Context. Overall message.

I am an atheist that sees value in christian morality. Shoot me.

Slavery is also a recurring theme that occurs quite often. As Rev. Phelps likes to remind us (and, unlike you, he's an ordained Christian minister) YHWH is a god of hate as well as love. I submit what you have is in fact a secular morality that you used to screen or interpret what's in the Bible.

Christian morality includes slavery. Slavery is permitted, even authorized. Is that your morality? If not, then you don't agree with Christian morality. You have chosen the parts that accord with a secular morality.

For you christian morality includes slavery.

When I was a christian it did not

As an atheist I have come to the conclusion that for most christians slavery is not part of there morality system.

Saying that christian morality includes slavery seems pretty pointless.
I have yet to meet one that would profess this as a moral underpinning?

[Goat]

For you christian morality includes slavery.

When I was a christian it did not

As an atheist I have come to the conclusion that for most christians slavery is not part of there morality system.

Saying that christian morality includes slavery seems pretty pointless.
I have yet to meet one that would profess this as a moral underpinning?

That is because.. morality is influenced by society .. and society had moved on from the crueler and more unjust parts of the bible.

Just because those passages were not quoted (for the most part) in the churches doesn't mean those passages no longer exist. That is the essence of cherry picking.

[Autodidact]

For you christian morality includes slavery.

When I was a christian it did not

As an atheist I have come to the conclusion that for most christians slavery is not part of there morality system.

Saying that christian morality includes slavery seems pretty pointless.
I have yet to meet one that would profess this as a moral underpinning?

That's because the modern Christians that you have met actually live a secular, Enlightenment morality that has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus. They may call it Christianity, but it doesn't come from the Bible, or from historic Christianity.

500 years ago, slavery was part of every Christian's moral system. Now it's not, because the enlightenment value of human equality--which is not in any way Christian, quite the opposite--has conquered religious morality, and holds sway. So now it influences and shapes what is taught in church, not the other way around.

The morality you were taught in church is in fact a secular, enlightenment morality, based on equality and compassion. Jesus preaches that slaves should be good slaves, and masters good masters. That's the Christian value.

The idea that women should be equal to men is very modern, maybe 200 years old in popular culture, and still not accepted worldwide. It is not in any way a Christian value. It is another example of enlightenment, humanist morality, which is based on human equality. If you believe in it, you are rejecting Christian morality in favor of a secular, enlightenment morality.

[Slopeshoulder]

Now wait a minute.

I've said that religionists have no special claim to morality. And David seems utterly reasonable, emphasizing themes, evolution, practice, culture.

So to reduce religious morality to the worst of biblical literalism and the horrors of the past doesn't seem to playing fair, unless in response to one who had made the claim that christianity is better/perfect/etc. In other words, it's fair game aganst a triumphalist or hard right evangelical (they're not all hard right), but other than that it seems disingenuous.


can't we all just get along?

[Goat]

Now wait a minute.

I've said that religionists have no special claim to morality. And David seems utterly reasonable, emphasizing themes, evolution, practice, culture.

So to reduce religious morality to the worst of biblical literalism and the horrors of the past doesn't seem to playing fair, unless in response to one who had made the claim that christianity is better/perfect/etc. In other words, it's fair game aganst a triumphalist or hard right evangelical (they're not all hard right), but other than that it seems disingenuous.


can't we all just get along?

I am just pointing out that Christian morality progresses, just like any other type of morality. It has nothing to do with 'Christianity' at all.. but rather the society as a whole

[Slopeshoulder]

For you christian morality includes slavery.

When I was a christian it did not

As an atheist I have come to the conclusion that for most christians slavery is not part of there morality system.

Saying that christian morality includes slavery seems pretty pointless.
I have yet to meet one that would profess this as a moral underpinning?

That's because the modern Christians that you have met actually live a secular, Enlightenment morality that has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus. They may call it Christianity, but it doesn't come from the Bible, or from historic Christianity.

500 years ago, slavery was part of every Christian's moral system. Now it's not, because the enlightenment value of human equality--which is not in any way Christian, quite the opposite--has conquered religious morality, and holds sway. So now it influences and shapes what is taught in church, not the other way around.

The morality you were taught in church is in fact a secular, enlightenment morality, based on equality and compassion. Jesus preaches that slaves should be good slaves, and masters good masters. That's the Christian value.

The idea that women should be equal to men is very modern, maybe 200 years old in popular culture, and still not accepted worldwide. It is not in any way a Christian value. It is another example of enlightenment, humanist morality, which is based on human equality. If you believe in it, you are rejecting Christian morality in favor of a secular, enlightenment morality.

It's not an either-or. You're ignoring a HUGE amount of post-enlightenment theology and practice, a HUGE shift and evolution to what christianity is today outside or retrograde circles. You're also ignoring the degree to which western humanistic values were influenced by religious values for centuries before. It's all blended together; the conflict is largely at the extremes. A modern humanist christian is still a christian; dang I thought I had made that much clear. Now the hard athiests and hard evangelicals are making common cause against the modern rational spiritual middle? I give up.