Atheism and morality vs. Christianity and morality

[Confused]

I have often heard that atheists are amoral and that Christianity offers the way to morality. This thread is quite simple then I guess.

1) Is there any evidence to link atheism and amorality? What?
2) Is there any evidence to link atheism and morality? What?
3) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and amorality? What?
4) Is there any evidence to link Christianity and morality? What?

[cholland]

From Post 73:

What constitutes morality (beyond the mere concept) is subjective opinion. There is no one group with a lock on either amorality or morality. This is why I propose we continue seeking a better understanding, and not just confine ourselves to what is approved "morality" according to ancient people or texts.

Seek a better understanding of what?

What best fits our standard or understanding of proper, right moral action or thought.

Which is...? Your statement seems quite circular.

If morality is nothing more than subjective opinion, what exactly are we seeking?

To encourage others to accept our particular subjective opinion regarding what constitutes proper, right moral action or thought.

lol "to accept our particular subjective opinion." It would no longer be subjective. Are you saying one person comes up with what constitutes right and then "encourages others to accept it." Welcome to religion.

What constitutes morality (beyond the mere concept) is subjective opinion. There is no one group with a lock on either amorality or morality. This is why I propose we continue seeking a better understanding, and not just confine ourselves to what is approved "morality" according to ancient people or texts.

Seek a better understanding of what? If morality is nothing more than subjective opinion, what exactly are we seeking?

What we are seeking is a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society. Morality is a culturally conditioned response

This sounds close to McCulloch's consequentialism. Who's "we?" Do you consider that particular end "good?" You would have to place faith in that "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" is good and then work from there.

[Goat]

[

This sounds close to McCulloch's consequentialism. Who's "we?" Do you consider that particular end "good?" You would have to place faith in that "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" is good and then work from there.

I don't have faith in that.. it is just an conclusion I drew since I have evidence that what is considered 'moral' in a society chances.. and that not everyone in a society will agree with everyone else that some things are moral or immoral.

As for 'we'..... the 'we' refers to the human race as a society.. it does not mean that people actually REALIZE that is what they are doing.. a lot of people react rather than consider. The The limbic system is much more powerful than the frontal lobes.

I start out with what my Culturally conditioned response is, and then, through thought and reason, I go from there.... at least attempt to use thought and reason.. my limbic system also is powerful.

[cholland]

[

This sounds close to McCulloch's consequentialism. Who's "we?" Do you consider that particular end "good?" You would have to place faith in that "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" is good and then work from there.

I don't have faith in that.. it is just an conclusion I drew since I have evidence that what is considered 'moral' in a society chances.. and that not everyone in a society will agree with everyone else that some things are moral or immoral.

As for 'we'..... the 'we' refers to the human race as a society.. it does not mean that people actually REALIZE that is what they are doing.. a lot of people react rather than consider. The The limbic system is much more powerful than the frontal lobes.

I start out with what my Culturally conditioned response is, and then, through thought and reason, I go from there.... at least attempt to use thought and reason.. my limbic system also is powerful.

To summarize, human society is seeking a conclusion you drew since you have evidence even though they don't realize it? And culture conditioned you to reach this conclusion?

Regardless, do you consider your particular conclusion "good?"

[Goat]

[

This sounds close to McCulloch's consequentialism. Who's "we?" Do you consider that particular end "good?" You would have to place faith in that "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" is good and then work from there.

I don't have faith in that.. it is just an conclusion I drew since I have evidence that what is considered 'moral' in a society chances.. and that not everyone in a society will agree with everyone else that some things are moral or immoral.

As for 'we'..... the 'we' refers to the human race as a society.. it does not mean that people actually REALIZE that is what they are doing.. a lot of people react rather than consider. The The limbic system is much more powerful than the frontal lobes.

I start out with what my Culturally conditioned response is, and then, through thought and reason, I go from there.... at least attempt to use thought and reason.. my limbic system also is powerful.

To summarize, human society is seeking a conclusion you drew since you have evidence even though they don't realize it? And culture conditioned you to reach this conclusion?

Regardless, do you consider your particular conclusion "good?"

No, human society is acting in that manner... it did not conclude that, it developed that way. Through observation, I concluded that is how it is acting. Cultural conditioning is not absolute.. it is just very persuasive. That is why societies CAN change.. it is that cultural conditioning is not absolute. Society as a whole is more like a school of fish.. it reacts rather than considers.

I reached my conclusions based on the observation of how societies react and change over time.

[cholland]

[

This sounds close to McCulloch's consequentialism. Who's "we?" Do you consider that particular end "good?" You would have to place faith in that "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" is good and then work from there.

I don't have faith in that.. it is just an conclusion I drew since I have evidence that what is considered 'moral' in a society chances.. and that not everyone in a society will agree with everyone else that some things are moral or immoral.

As for 'we'..... the 'we' refers to the human race as a society.. it does not mean that people actually REALIZE that is what they are doing.. a lot of people react rather than consider. The The limbic system is much more powerful than the frontal lobes.

I start out with what my Culturally conditioned response is, and then, through thought and reason, I go from there.... at least attempt to use thought and reason.. my limbic system also is powerful.

To summarize, human society is seeking a conclusion you drew since you have evidence even though they don't realize it? And culture conditioned you to reach this conclusion?

Regardless, do you consider your particular conclusion "good?"

No, human society is acting in that manner... it did not conclude that, it developed that way. Through observation, I concluded that is how it is acting. Cultural conditioning is not absolute.. it is just very persuasive. That is why societies CAN change.. it is that cultural conditioning is not absolute. Society as a whole is more like a school of fish.. it reacts rather than considers.

I reached my conclusions based on the observation of how societies react and change over time.

Yah, cultures and societies change, that's kind of obvious. My question is do you consider your particular goal/end (a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society) "good"?

[Goat]

Yah, cultures and societies change, that's kind of obvious. My question is do you consider your particular goal/end (a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society) "good"?

Well, I don't consider it a 'goal/end'. I consider it an observation. I will note that some cultures, the society is overly restrictive and has much power and totalitarian , and in other societies, the society in general is overwhelmed by the individual.

I personally would be uncomfortable in a situation like Somalia, where anarchy reigns supreme, or in a extremely restrictive society, such as North Korea, Iran , Burma and Saudia Arabia.

[cholland]

Yah, cultures and societies change, that's kind of obvious. My question is do you consider your particular goal/end (a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society) "good"?

Well, I don't consider it a 'goal/end'. I consider it an observation. I will note that some cultures, the society is overly restrictive and has much power and totalitarian , and in other societies, the society in general is overwhelmed by the individual.

I personally would be uncomfortable in a situation like Somalia, where anarchy reigns supreme, or in a extremely restrictive society, such as North Korea, Iran , Burma and Saudia Arabia.

eh? Now we're seeking an observation.

Post 80: What we are seeking is a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society.

Post 82: "we" = human race or society

Post 82: some people do not realize this is what they are seeking

Post 86: "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" = Goat's observation

"What [the human race/society] are seeking is [an observation by Goat]." (and some don't realize it)

Do you see my confusion?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 81:

Seek a better understanding of what?

What best fits our standard or understanding of proper, right moral action or thought.

Which is...? Your statement seems quite circular.

Let's rephrase it then...

"What best fits our standard or understanding of proper, right ... action or thought."

So, we have "discovered" this thing we call "morality". Now we get into the process of determining what is the best way to go about being it. Is it moral to kill? No! What if someone's trying to kill me? Yes! It's an ongoing process of confronting questions and trying to come up with the best, least "painful" way of solving them.

ol "to accept our particular subjective opinion." It would no longer be subjective. Are you saying one person comes up with what constitutes right and then "encourages others to accept it." Welcome to religion.

Ah, but the atheist doesn't say, "Because God". We say, "Because x, y, z".

Is it moral to wear mixed fabrics?

Is it moral to engage in homosexual acts?

Is it moral to stone those who engage in homosexual acts?

Notice, even the Christian god seems to have changed his mind on some of those, if Christians are to be believed. Even God has his subjective opinion.

[Goat]

Yah, cultures and societies change, that's kind of obvious. My question is do you consider your particular goal/end (a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society) "good"?

Well, I don't consider it a 'goal/end'. I consider it an observation. I will note that some cultures, the society is overly restrictive and has much power and totalitarian , and in other societies, the society in general is overwhelmed by the individual.

I personally would be uncomfortable in a situation like Somalia, where anarchy reigns supreme, or in a extremely restrictive society, such as North Korea, Iran , Burma and Saudia Arabia.

eh? Now we're seeking an observation.

Post 80: What we are seeking is a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society.

And, I clairified,.. that is what happens.. by observation. It isn't what we 'seeks', it is what we DO.'

Post 82: "we" = human race or society

That is correct. I am including Christian, atheists, and all other religions in this statement. Who else would it be?

Post 82: some people do not realize this is what they are seeking

Most people do not realize what they are doing.. Not seeking. Seeking has connotations in it that are inappropriate to my point, and is a dishonest distortion of what I am saying.

Post 86: "a balance between the opinion of the individual and the consensus of the society" = Goat's observation

"What [the human race/society] are seeking is [an observation by Goat]." (and some don't realize it)

Most don't realize it, and no.. not seeking.. doing.

When a rock gets thrown off balance, does it 'seek' a new balance?

I see you are attempting to graph on to my points meanings that are not in evidence. Yes, you are confused.

That points are rather clear though.

Do you seek to breath?


Given the vast amount of variations between societies, and even within societies, and the fact consensus about what is moral changes in societies over time, what is YOUR explanation?

[Slopeshoulder]

Is it moral to wear mixed fabrics?

Joey, as is well known, both of my religion degrees concentrated in ethics. So naturally regarding morals I am always right and I know all things. Therefore I proclaim on this day that it is immoral to wear a polyester blend, and further it is a mortal sin to impose such fabrics on others on a hot humid day or in a flammable environment. It is also deeply wrong for a man to wear more than two patterns when suiting up for the office. And purple ties at funerals? Don't get me and the lord started.
Thus it is written!