Religion is Placebo

[Mr.Badham]

Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.

Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.

By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.

It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.

And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.

[yaright]

Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.

Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.

By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.

It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.

And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.

It seems that any number of groups would be more effective as placebos for those who seek something they do not fully understand. In the security of surroundings shaped according to the design of the group, a new person joining the group tends to go in the direction of the group; A direction less likely taken if that person had not joined that group. It doesn't matter if that group fully understands anything; but because I am in that group, I feel better.

Where did I go wrong?

[Mr.Badham]

It's not about what you believe, it's about why you believe. Why you reject the religions you reject and why you accept whatever "information" it is that you accept.

The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.

If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.

The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.

Looking at the surface, what vs why of religions, I'd agree all religions (and I put atheism in that catagory too) are the same. However, below the surface of the different 'beliefs' there's quite a difference, therefore the 'what' is extremely important, IMO.

Your understanding of 'religion' is incomplete if you think that all that's involved in a religion is 'praying for things the person wants or thinks is needed'.

Please explain what claims you are speaking about that you say are identical in all religions?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that the only thing that any religious person prays for is help, or stuff.

What I meant is that every religious person believes there is a god listening, and that this god cares. And every religious person can give us a testimonial of how their god has touched them in some way, and at the same time use it as proof that their god is the one and only god.

What I'm saying is that this is impossible, because while they all can be wrong, all but one must be wrong. How is an atheist like myself supposed to decide which one is correct, when they all make identical claims? If I am to treat them all the same, which I must to be fair, I must treat them all as incorrect, which I do. Then I look for some reason they could all feel the exact same thing, while praying to contradictory gods. I believe it's because they all have similar brains that respond to placebo.

Therefore Placebo is the best explanation.

Why do you think praying to contradictory gods can make people feel as though their god is the one true god?

[Dokimas]

It's not about what you believe, it's about why you believe. Why you reject the religions you reject and why you accept whatever "information" it is that you accept.

The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.

If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.

The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.

Looking at the surface, what vs why of religions, I'd agree all religions (and I put atheism in that catagory too) are the same. However, below the surface of the different 'beliefs' there's quite a difference, therefore the 'what' is extremely important, IMO.

Your understanding of 'religion' is incomplete if you think that all that's involved in a religion is 'praying for things the person wants or thinks is needed'.

Please explain what claims you are speaking about that you say are identical in all religions?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that the only thing that any religious person prays for is help, or stuff.

What I meant is that every religious person believes there is a god listening, and that this god cares. And every religious person can give us a testimonial of how their god has touched them in some way, and at the same time use it as proof that their god is the one and only god.

What I'm saying is that this is impossible, because while they all can be wrong, all but one must be wrong. How is an atheist like myself supposed to decide which one is correct, when they all make identical claims? If I am to treat them all the same, which I must to be fair, I must treat them all as incorrect, which I do. Then I look for some reason they could all feel the exact same thing, while praying to contradictory gods. I believe it's because they all have similar brains that respond to placebo.

Therefore Placebo is the best explanation.

Why do you think praying to contradictory gods can make people feel as though their god is the one true god?

I've never been an atheist so I recommend you read CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'. According to him, he became a Christian, not by feeling - actually he said his feelings would have taken him far from Christianity, but on the facts. (This is my take on what he wrote.) He'll be able to tell you how and why he chose Christianty over any other religion.

[Mr.Badham]

Here's another example of what I'm saying;

You child is in a kindergarten play about the nativity scene. It's fun to watch, it's cute and you really enjoy yourself. But no matter how fun it is you're not going to watch the kindergarten class perform the nativity scene again next year, because your kid is in grade one. For all intents and purposes it would be exactly the same play with all the same characters and costumes, and the kids would be as cute. But it would be missing the most important part... your kid. What is it about your kid being in the play that changes everything? Well... it's your kid. And it's completely subjective. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's the same with your religion. What is it about your religion that makes you think it's so special? Well... it's your religion. It's completely subjective

[Mr.Badham]

It's not about what you believe, it's about why you believe. Why you reject the religions you reject and why you accept whatever "information" it is that you accept.

The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.

If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.

The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.

Looking at the surface, what vs why of religions, I'd agree all religions (and I put atheism in that catagory too) are the same. However, below the surface of the different 'beliefs' there's quite a difference, therefore the 'what' is extremely important, IMO.

Your understanding of 'religion' is incomplete if you think that all that's involved in a religion is 'praying for things the person wants or thinks is needed'.

Please explain what claims you are speaking about that you say are identical in all religions?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that the only thing that any religious person prays for is help, or stuff.

What I meant is that every religious person believes there is a god listening, and that this god cares. And every religious person can give us a testimonial of how their god has touched them in some way, and at the same time use it as proof that their god is the one and only god.

What I'm saying is that this is impossible, because while they all can be wrong, all but one must be wrong. How is an atheist like myself supposed to decide which one is correct, when they all make identical claims? If I am to treat them all the same, which I must to be fair, I must treat them all as incorrect, which I do. Then I look for some reason they could all feel the exact same thing, while praying to contradictory gods. I believe it's because they all have similar brains that respond to placebo.

Therefore Placebo is the best explanation.

Why do you think praying to contradictory gods can make people feel as though their god is the one true god?

I've never been an atheist so I recommend you read CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'. According to him, he became a Christian, not by feeling - actually he said his feelings would have taken him far from Christianity, but on the facts. (This is my take on what he wrote.) He'll be able to tell you how and why he chose Christianty over any other religion.

Why don't you just tell me? Is that why you're a Christian? C.S. Lewis?

[Moses Yoder]

My wife and I had been looking for a car for about 3 months. We were going to buy an inexpensive used car, about $3K, but we couldn't find anything we were satisfied with. We decided to switch some cars around and buy a newer car, something in the $10K range. I took a day off work on Friday, December 9th, 2011.On Thursday, the evening before our car shopping day, we looked online at a number of cars in Kalamazoo, MI and then saw one car that was in Schoolcraft at David Rice Auto Sales. Schoolcraft is a small town so I didn't think to write down the address of the dealership. My wife got their number out of the phone book the next morning and I called it on the way there. It turned out to be a discontinued number. We decided to stop at a gas station and ask directions. I asked the attendant if she knew where David Rice Auto sales is and she replied she did not know, so I asked for a phone book. I took the book to the back counter and started looking, praying that I would be able to find it otherwise we would go on north and wouldn't be able to look at that Saturn Vue we had our eyes on. I could not find the dealership. The attendant came back and asked how I was doing and I replied "Not very well." She went back to the cash register and asked the man waiting there "Do you know where David Rice Auto Sales is at?" And he replied "That's me." We both looked at him and she said "What do you mean?" And he replied "I'm David Rice, owner of David Rice Auto Sales." We went to where he told us the dealership was and he sold us the 2007 Saturn Vue which we really love.

If things like this were to happen to you on a regular basis, would you say that was a placebo effect, or coincidence? There is no way you will believe God cares about us enough to actually help us do such a simple thing as making the right vehicle purchase, so I am curios to know how your mind works. Do such things happen to me regularly simply because I am lucky, coincidence, or placebo effect? Before answering this question, please calculate the odds of the owner of the company I was looking for being at the cash register of the same gas station at the same time I was (he had about a 10 minute windown before I was giving up) in a town with the population of about 1500 people. You seem like a pretty smart guy, so that shouldn't be too hard for you.

[bjs]

Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.

Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.

By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.

It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.

Im a little late in joining this debate, but I thought I would throw my two cents in.

If I were to have an experience of the Divine, I could not say absolutely that it was genuine as opposed to being a placebo or something akin to it.

However, I cannot say absolutely that any experience I have is genuine as opposed to something else.

For instance, a few minutes ago I walked outside and spoke with my neighbor, Jenifer, and during the conversation it began to snow. I cant prove that experience was real. Perhaps my memory is false, or I was affected by someone form of drug, or maybe I am insane and I dont even have a neighbor named Jenifer.

I cannot say absolutely that any experience is genuine, but I will continue to believe that all of my experiences (be they of the Divine or the mundane) are genuine unless I have some reason to believe that certain experience are false.

I cannot be certain that my experience of talking to Jenifer was real, but since I have no good reason to say that it was false I will continue to believe that it was genuine.

If someone has an experience of the Divine then she could not be certain that it was real, but without reason to say that it was false she should continue to believe that it was genuine.

Anything is possible, but the mere fact that something could be placebo is not sufficient reason to believe that it is placebo.

And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.

I came to believe in the Creator without have any personal experience of the Divine. The existence of a Creator was (and remains) the most reasonable explanation I can find for the available evidence.

[Dokimas]

Here's another example of what I'm saying;

You child is in a kindergarten play about the nativity scene. It's fun to watch, it's cute and you really enjoy yourself. But no matter how fun it is you're not going to watch the kindergarten class perform the nativity scene again next year, because your kid is in grade one. For all intents and purposes it would be exactly the same play with all the same characters and costumes, and the kids would be as cute. But it would be missing the most important part... your kid. What is it about your kid being in the play that changes everything? Well... it's your kid. And it's completely subjective. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's the same with your religion. What is it about your religion that makes you think it's so special? Well... it's your religion. It's completely subjective

Let me again encourage you to read 'Mere Christianity'. CS Lewis may have the answers you are looking for unless your goal is to trip up people who believer there is a Creator. Even then, Mr Lewis may have some answers to questions you may not even know you have.

[Mr.Badham]

My wife and I had been looking for a car for about 3 months. We were going to buy an inexpensive used car, about $3K, but we couldn't find anything we were satisfied with. We decided to switch some cars around and buy a newer car, something in the $10K range. I took a day off work on Friday, December 9th, 2011.On Thursday, the evening before our car shopping day, we looked online at a number of cars in Kalamazoo, MI and then saw one car that was in Schoolcraft at David Rice Auto Sales. Schoolcraft is a small town so I didn't think to write down the address of the dealership. My wife got their number out of the phone book the next morning and I called it on the way there. It turned out to be a discontinued number. We decided to stop at a gas station and ask directions. I asked the attendant if she knew where David Rice Auto sales is and she replied she did not know, so I asked for a phone book. I took the book to the back counter and started looking, praying that I would be able to find it otherwise we would go on north and wouldn't be able to look at that Saturn Vue we had our eyes on. I could not find the dealership. The attendant came back and asked how I was doing and I replied "Not very well." She went back to the cash register and asked the man waiting there "Do you know where David Rice Auto Sales is at?" And he replied "That's me." We both looked at him and she said "What do you mean?" And he replied "I'm David Rice, owner of David Rice Auto Sales." We went to where he told us the dealership was and he sold us the 2007 Saturn Vue which we really love.

If things like this were to happen to you on a regular basis, would you say that was a placebo effect, or coincidence? There is no way you will believe God cares about us enough to actually help us do such a simple thing as making the right vehicle purchase, so I am curios to know how your mind works. Do such things happen to me regularly simply because I am lucky, coincidence, or placebo effect? Before answering this question, please calculate the odds of the owner of the company I was looking for being at the cash register of the same gas station at the same time I was (he had about a 10 minute windown before I was giving up) in a town with the population of about 1500 people. You seem like a pretty smart guy, so that shouldn't be too hard for you.

Personally I would call that a coincidence. I'm no mathematician, but I'm sure the odds were not in favour of that happening. To be honest, it's a cool story. I like those kinds of stories, but I don't know that it applies to the placebo effect. And without trying to sound like a jerk, I think you should give it a while before you call yourself lucky. You may have bought a lemon. Just saying.

There is a saying that goes; The harder I work, the luckier I am. I think hard working positive minded people do get lucky more often than pessimistic people who give up when the going gets tough. I think the moral of your story is that you gave it a good honest try and it worked out for you. You should be proud of yourself. You should take credit for what happened. Think of all the ways it could have turned out different. You were smart enough to ask for directions when you didn't know where you were going. You were friendly enough that the attendant wanted to help and did. As for the owner stopping in at that exact moment... lucky. But if you ask me there was more hard work than luck. Also, a town of 1500 is not very big. I'm sure you could have found it anyway.

The other question is this; What would you have found if you didn't get that Saturn? There's a silver lining to every cloud. I'm sure you would have found something that suited you just as well, and you would have felt just as lucky for not going to the Saturn dealership.

Personally, I think just being born in the United States of America means you've won the jackpot. Being healthy and wealthy enough to buy a car is a couple more reasons to celebrate life. You think you're lucky to find a good car, but a person with no legs would have thought you lucky just to have legs. A blind person would think you lucky just to have sight. A widower would think you lucky to have a wife. Etc etc etc.

We're all lucky to have an opportunity to experience the universe. No god required.

[Mr.Badham]

Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.

Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.

By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.

It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.

Im a little late in joining this debate, but I thought I would throw my two cents in.

If I were to have an experience of the Divine, I could not say absolutely that it was genuine as opposed to being a placebo or something akin to it.

However, I cannot say absolutely that any experience I have is genuine as opposed to something else.

The point of my thread is this; Until you do have an experience with god you have no reason to believe there is a god. There is no evidence anywhere at all that there is a god, except other people's testimonials/scriptures/holy books. You have no reason to believe them either. They are experiencing the placebo effect. It's about being honest with yourself.

For instance, a few minutes ago I walked outside and spoke with my neighbor, Jenifer, and during the conversation it began to snow. I cant prove that experience was real. Perhaps my memory is false, or I was affected by someone form of drug, or maybe I am insane and I dont even have a neighbor named Jenifer.

I cannot say absolutely that any experience is genuine, but I will continue to believe that all of my experiences (be they of the Divine or the mundane) are genuine unless I have some reason to believe that certain experience are false.

I cannot be certain that my experience of talking to Jenifer was real, but since I have no good reason to say that it was false I will continue to believe that it was genuine.

If someone has an experience of the Divine then she could not be certain that it was real, but without reason to say that it was false she should continue to believe that it was genuine.

Good analogy. You have every reason to believe that Jennifer exists. You story has nothing fantastic in it. I also have neighbors that I talk to from time to time. It snows where I live too. I did not experience your visit, but it's nothing unordinary. So I believe you. Now if you said that Jennifer flew away, or Jennifer healed your wound and commanded us all to worship her, I would then say, "I don't believe you." Anyone would. So why don't we say that when a preacher tells us the same thing? I'm telling you right now, Jennifer has to fly to my house and heal me herself before I will believe you. Is that too much to ask?

Anything is possible, but the mere fact that something could be placebo is not sufficient reason to believe that it is placebo.

Don't let people tell you that anything is possible. The fact that something could be placebo is sufficient reason to believe that someone else's experience with the creator is placebo.

And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.

I came to believe in the Creator without have any personal experience of the Divine. The existence of a Creator was (and remains) the most reasonable explanation I can find for the available evidence.

So is it fair to say; The only reason you believe in a creator is that someone else told you about him. Does your creator and his expectations of you coincide with what many people would call Christianity?