Religion is Placebo

[Mr.Badham]

Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.

Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.

By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.

It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.

And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.

[Dokimas]

Speaking strictly for myself, I care about Christianity because, IMO, it is flawed and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, much like Islam. I think Christian doctrine, dogma, ritual practices and indoctrination should be off limits to children. In the USA, Christianity is granted what I consider to be unconstitutional tax preferences upon which many of its sects build vast amounts of untaxed wealth. Christianity which teaches it's unfounded superstitions as absolute truths is immoral IMO. Much of Christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and judges half the world to hell without justification. These are but a few of the many reasons that I care about Christianity.

And you plan on righting these wrongs by posting your opinions on a debate forum? There are many people who think like you. They are actively supporting like minded politicians and lobbying for their beliefs. They are not wasting their time debating with Christians, they know they can't change their minds. Once they are in control, they will try to eliminate Christianity through euthanasia or possibly with the widespread use of guillotines.

Your presuppositions as to my intent are noted. I have no illusions as to being able to change any minds; doing so would probably require some form of reverse indoctrination. I enjoy sharing my opinions and ideas with others, believers and non-believers alike, and doing so on this debate forum for several years has led me to a more full understanding of why I reject Christianity and continue to argue against it.

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

[Flail]

Dokimis wrote:

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

That quote is based upon my experience with a multitude of Christians during my lifetime (in the Bible Belt) who profess those views and also upon my understanding of radical Islam. It is obviously not intended for those who do not teach such doctrine to their children, of whom I am aware are many, Christians and Muslims alike.

Dokimis wrote:

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Excellent. I have many Christian friends and family members who believe and teach as you do and I support your views. However, many of your faith have more radical views and it is to them that my quote is directed.

Dokimis wrote:

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

That sounds a bit like Pascal's wager; I worry that fundamentalist Christians may offend a real God( if there is one) by professing their beliefs in a false one. I am a big fan of Jesus; a man whom I believe would not be a Christian were he alive today.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

It's worth pasting again:

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Do you notice how you use your empty claims to support your empty claims? No one knows who wrote 2 Peter, but it was written quite late and it's purpose was to address the problem of the Parousia, which is to say, the problem that Jesus HAD NOT returned as promised by the second century. Two thousand years have now passed and Jesus still HAS NOT returned as promised. What more evidence do you require then that this expectation was nonsense two thousand years ago, and remains nonsense to this day. Your empty claims are STILL EMPTY after the passage of two millennia. But YOUR PERSONAL CLAIM on this forum was of a "preponderance" of "evidence" which supports your beliefs. Which you do not have! What you have is your faith in the truth of empty claims based on a lifetime of programming. If you have actual evidence as promised then please reveal it to us.

[Dokimas]

It's worth pasting again:

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Do you notice how you use your empty claims to support your empty claims? No one knows who wrote 2 Peter, but it was written quite late and it's purpose was to address the problem of the Parousia, which is to say, the problem that Jesus HAD NOT returned as promised by the second century. Two thousand years have now passed and Jesus still HAS NOT returned as promised. What more evidence do you require then that this expectation was nonsense two thousand years ago, and remains nonsense to this day. Your empty claims are STILL EMPTY after the passage of two millennia. But YOUR PERSONAL CLAIM on this forum was of a "preponderance" of "evidence" which supports your beliefs. Which you do not have! What you have is your faith in the truth of empty claims based on a lifetime of programming. If you have actual evidence as promised then please reveal it to us.

You don't know what 'evidence' I've seen.

As you don't owe me an explanation of what you base your beliefs upon (and remember I'm not the first to mention 'perponderance of evidence' - btw, where's the proof?), I don't owe you an explanation.

However, due to the fact that time and space here is limited, I'll post places where anyone can go to, that I believe do a good job of answering any honest questions about what I believe and upon what I believe is a 'perponderance of evidence' upon which I have based my understandings.

I'm not great with words so I hope this is understandable.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Lets say there are 3 people left in the world, on an abandoned island with no food. Two are blonde, and one has brown hair. The two blondes stick together, naturally, and the one with brown hair is treated like an outsider. After a couple days, they are all hungry with no food in sight. The majority, the 2 blondes, vote to kill and eat the one with brown hair. Since the majority has decided that is a good thing to do, then it must therefore be good. It just doesn't seem that great to the person with brown hair.

I read a story some few years ago about three friends who were camping in Alaska. A brown bear attacked the camp. Two of the men managed to climb a tree to safety, but the third was badly mauled by the bear. The bear chewed on the man's intestines for awhile, and then lost interest and left, leaving the man mortally wounded but still alive, at least briefly. Was it the dying man's bad luck? Was it bad karma? Did he simply have a bad day? Was the bear bad? Was it evil? NO! It was just a bear being a bear. And there are no absolutes involved, the mauling was simply an event, albeit an unfortunate one for the mauled man and his friends and family. Placing a moral value such an event is meaningless, but it is a very human trait to do so. Because there is value in doing so. As societal creatures we take steps to prevent unfortunate events from occurring, calling them "bad." But "bad" is not an absolute concept. It is an opinion. In a society, it tends to represent a majority opinion. And opinions do change.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you would care what I believe. It's like me telling you that you are not thinking right for wearing briefs, everybody knows boxers is the way to go.

If you wore your briefs quietly and kept that fact to yourself, then why WOULD I care? But when instead you congregate into groups which unite with other groups for the openly avowed political purpose of making the universal standard for under garments briefs as a matter of the law based on your personal belief and empty claim that briefs and only briefs are the way and the life, then yes, your beliefs, and your briefs, are now fair game. You feel free to express your beliefs openly and with the purpose of universal acceptance of them. Why should you expect a free pass?

[Goat]

Speaking strictly for myself, I care about Christianity because, IMO, it is flawed and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, much like Islam. I think Christian doctrine, dogma, ritual practices and indoctrination should be off limits to children. In the USA, Christianity is granted what I consider to be unconstitutional tax preferences upon which many of its sects build vast amounts of untaxed wealth. Christianity which teaches it's unfounded superstitions as absolute truths is immoral IMO. Much of Christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and judges half the world to hell without justification. These are but a few of the many reasons that I care about Christianity.

And you plan on righting these wrongs by posting your opinions on a debate forum? There are many people who think like you. They are actively supporting like minded politicians and lobbying for their beliefs. They are not wasting their time debating with Christians, they know they can't change their minds. Once they are in control, they will try to eliminate Christianity through euthanasia or possibly with the widespread use of guillotines.

Your presuppositions as to my intent are noted. I have no illusions as to being able to change any minds; doing so would probably require some form of reverse indoctrination. I enjoy sharing my opinions and ideas with others, believers and non-believers alike, and doing so on this debate forum for several years has led me to a more full understanding of why I reject Christianity and continue to argue against it.

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

I keep on hearing that 'Jesus, (God in the Flesh), loves and died for everyone.

However, I don't see any evidence other than 'because I told you'. This sounds like pure propaganda and preaching to me. How can I reject something that I don't see even existing to begin with? That is like rejecting the tooth fairy, Brahma, Vishnu, or Pooka's. All I see is a huge bunch of people telling me about it, and their version of Jesus/God reflect their own personality and traits. I got stern , hateful Christians telling me that I will go to hell with my carnal knowledge., down to the 'BBQ Pit'. I see others protesting the funerals of Service men who gave their lives for our countries, saying they were punished because "God Hates Fags". I know people who suffer because their own parents say 'Homosexuality is a sin, and you are going to burn in hell forever'. Other people get beaten up because they are Mulsim, or Jews, or gay... and it's against Christianity.

Then you say 'Jesus loves you, but there are 'consequences if you reject him" , and you can't even show he exists?? Do you know what that sounds like?
I will say that it doesn't sound loving

[Dokimas]

Speaking strictly for myself, I care about Christianity because, IMO, it is flawed and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, much like Islam. I think Christian doctrine, dogma, ritual practices and indoctrination should be off limits to children. In the USA, Christianity is granted what I consider to be unconstitutional tax preferences upon which many of its sects build vast amounts of untaxed wealth. Christianity which teaches it's unfounded superstitions as absolute truths is immoral IMO. Much of Christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and judges half the world to hell without justification. These are but a few of the many reasons that I care about Christianity.

And you plan on righting these wrongs by posting your opinions on a debate forum? There are many people who think like you. They are actively supporting like minded politicians and lobbying for their beliefs. They are not wasting their time debating with Christians, they know they can't change their minds. Once they are in control, they will try to eliminate Christianity through euthanasia or possibly with the widespread use of guillotines.

Your presuppositions as to my intent are noted. I have no illusions as to being able to change any minds; doing so would probably require some form of reverse indoctrination. I enjoy sharing my opinions and ideas with others, believers and non-believers alike, and doing so on this debate forum for several years has led me to a more full understanding of why I reject Christianity and continue to argue against it.

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

I keep on hearing that 'Jesus, (God in the Flesh), loves and died for everyone.

However, I don't see any evidence other than 'because I told you'. This sounds like pure propaganda and preaching to me. How can I reject something that I don't see even existing to begin with? That is like rejecting the tooth fairy, Brahma, Vishnu, or Pooka's. All I see is a huge bunch of people telling me about it, and their version of Jesus/God reflect their own personality and traits. I got stern , hateful Christians telling me that I will go to hell with my carnal knowledge., down to the 'BBQ Pit'. I see others protesting the funerals of Service men who gave their lives for our countries, saying they were punished because "God Hates Fags". I know people who suffer because their own parents say 'Homosexuality is a sin, and you are going to burn in hell forever'. Other people get beaten up because they are Mulsim, or Jews, or gay... and it's against Christianity.

Then you say 'Jesus loves you, but there are 'consequences if you reject him" , and you can't even show he exists?? Do you know what that sounds like?
I will say that it doesn't sound loving

Sorry, that's most likely the best I can do for now.

As for parents calling sin sin, as a parent I'd tell my children that premarital sex is sin, lieing is a sin, stealing is a sin; and sin has consequenses. Forgiveness doesn't mean that all consequenses are dealt with; loving parents discipline children to help them see that doing wrong things have consequenses - discipline for 'small' sins can help us reject doing the 'big' wrong things. Uttimately, we have free will. IMO, God loves you enough to give you free will. It's your choice how you use it.

[Goat]

Speaking strictly for myself, I care about Christianity because, IMO, it is flawed and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, much like Islam. I think Christian doctrine, dogma, ritual practices and indoctrination should be off limits to children. In the USA, Christianity is granted what I consider to be unconstitutional tax preferences upon which many of its sects build vast amounts of untaxed wealth. Christianity which teaches it's unfounded superstitions as absolute truths is immoral IMO. Much of Christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and judges half the world to hell without justification. These are but a few of the many reasons that I care about Christianity.

And you plan on righting these wrongs by posting your opinions on a debate forum? There are many people who think like you. They are actively supporting like minded politicians and lobbying for their beliefs. They are not wasting their time debating with Christians, they know they can't change their minds. Once they are in control, they will try to eliminate Christianity through euthanasia or possibly with the widespread use of guillotines.

Your presuppositions as to my intent are noted. I have no illusions as to being able to change any minds; doing so would probably require some form of reverse indoctrination. I enjoy sharing my opinions and ideas with others, believers and non-believers alike, and doing so on this debate forum for several years has led me to a more full understanding of why I reject Christianity and continue to argue against it.

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

I keep on hearing that 'Jesus, (God in the Flesh), loves and died for everyone.

However, I don't see any evidence other than 'because I told you'. This sounds like pure propaganda and preaching to me. How can I reject something that I don't see even existing to begin with? That is like rejecting the tooth fairy, Brahma, Vishnu, or Pooka's. All I see is a huge bunch of people telling me about it, and their version of Jesus/God reflect their own personality and traits. I got stern , hateful Christians telling me that I will go to hell with my carnal knowledge., down to the 'BBQ Pit'. I see others protesting the funerals of Service men who gave their lives for our countries, saying they were punished because "God Hates Fags". I know people who suffer because their own parents say 'Homosexuality is a sin, and you are going to burn in hell forever'. Other people get beaten up because they are Mulsim, or Jews, or gay... and it's against Christianity.

Then you say 'Jesus loves you, but there are 'consequences if you reject him" , and you can't even show he exists?? Do you know what that sounds like?
I will say that it doesn't sound loving

Sorry, that's most likely the best I can do for now.

As for parents calling sin sin, as a parent I'd tell my children that premarital sex is sin, lieing is a sin, stealing is a sin; and sin has consequenses. Forgiveness doesn't mean that all consequenses are dealt with; loving parents discipline children to help them see that doing wrong things have consequenses - discipline for 'small' sins can help us reject doing the 'big' wrong things. Uttimately, we have free will. IMO, God loves you enough to give you free will. It's your choice how you use it.

Now, I have quite often don't understand what people mean by 'free will'. As for 'consequences'.. you can show consequences for lying, you can show consequences for stealing... but, as for showing consequence for not b believing in God or Jesus.. that sounds more like a threat rather than reality

[Dokimas]

Speaking strictly for myself, I care about Christianity because, IMO, it is flawed and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, much like Islam. I think Christian doctrine, dogma, ritual practices and indoctrination should be off limits to children. In the USA, Christianity is granted what I consider to be unconstitutional tax preferences upon which many of its sects build vast amounts of untaxed wealth. Christianity which teaches it's unfounded superstitions as absolute truths is immoral IMO. Much of Christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and judges half the world to hell without justification. These are but a few of the many reasons that I care about Christianity.

And you plan on righting these wrongs by posting your opinions on a debate forum? There are many people who think like you. They are actively supporting like minded politicians and lobbying for their beliefs. They are not wasting their time debating with Christians, they know they can't change their minds. Once they are in control, they will try to eliminate Christianity through euthanasia or possibly with the widespread use of guillotines.

Your presuppositions as to my intent are noted. I have no illusions as to being able to change any minds; doing so would probably require some form of reverse indoctrination. I enjoy sharing my opinions and ideas with others, believers and non-believers alike, and doing so on this debate forum for several years has led me to a more full understanding of why I reject Christianity and continue to argue against it.

The quote on the bottom of your post is:

"Only when Muslims and Christians stop teaching their children that God loves only them, and so despises the other so as to sentence them to eternal Hell, will we have a chance to stop the violence and bloodshed. Please leave your children out of your superstitions."

If this is what you believe about Christians and Christianity, your rejection of Christianity is based on falsehood and you should then re-examine your reason for rejecting.

I know many Christians and the teaching of Biblical Christianity and am a Christian parent who, with my wife, brought up two daughters, and I deny the accusation that we teach our children that God only loves Christians.

Quite the opposite. Jesus (God in the Flesh) loves and died for everyone. However, He won't keep you from your free will rejection of Jesus as your Savior. You won't be able to blame Him for your choices and the 'shoe' fits me as well. Free will has rewards and potential consequences.

I keep on hearing that 'Jesus, (God in the Flesh), loves and died for everyone.

However, I don't see any evidence other than 'because I told you'. This sounds like pure propaganda and preaching to me. How can I reject something that I don't see even existing to begin with? That is like rejecting the tooth fairy, Brahma, Vishnu, or Pooka's. All I see is a huge bunch of people telling me about it, and their version of Jesus/God reflect their own personality and traits. I got stern , hateful Christians telling me that I will go to hell with my carnal knowledge., down to the 'BBQ Pit'. I see others protesting the funerals of Service men who gave their lives for our countries, saying they were punished because "God Hates Fags". I know people who suffer because their own parents say 'Homosexuality is a sin, and you are going to burn in hell forever'. Other people get beaten up because they are Mulsim, or Jews, or gay... and it's against Christianity.

Then you say 'Jesus loves you, but there are 'consequences if you reject him" , and you can't even show he exists?? Do you know what that sounds like?
I will say that it doesn't sound loving

Sorry, that's most likely the best I can do for now.

As for parents calling sin sin, as a parent I'd tell my children that premarital sex is sin, lieing is a sin, stealing is a sin; and sin has consequenses. Forgiveness doesn't mean that all consequenses are dealt with; loving parents discipline children to help them see that doing wrong things have consequenses - discipline for 'small' sins can help us reject doing the 'big' wrong things. Uttimately, we have free will. IMO, God loves you enough to give you free will. It's your choice how you use it.

Now, I have quite often don't understand what people mean by 'free will'. As for 'consequences'.. you can show consequences for lying, you can show consequences for stealing... but, as for showing consequence for not b believing in God or Jesus.. that sounds more like a threat rather than reality

Sorry, I can't do better. Time to go, friend.

[Oldfarmhouse]

Dokimas -- there are two analogies that you brought up. The one about two glasses of clear liquid -- look the same but are not. Only further investigation would reveal the differences between the two. I like that one because you are right, there are things that look identical based on a casual observation but are not at all the same when one investigates further.

Good job. Now, when I tried to interpret this as being an analogy for you religion -- I thought that you were saying that one can only view your religion properly by being a believer. -- OK, that's not what you were getting at -- I made that observation based on what I have been told by many different believers. So, if you are just saying that one ought to investigate your religion in order to find out what it's really about -- OK, I have. I have also investigated many others. There are some differences and some similarities. What I am getting at is -- are you willing to acknowledge the aspects of your religion that are pretty much the same with most -- almost all others?

You bring up the biblical passage from Peter -- there will be scoffers! This is one aspect of your religion that you can investigate. You will find that this type of thing -- looking at it categorically -- is present in all religious groups. The warning that there will be those who criticize the sacred doctrine and supply an ad hominem toward such people. They "walk according to their own lusts," perhaps they are unenlightened, they reject the spirit, they have their own selfish reasons, they just don't want to embrace the truth, on and on.

This is very convenient for the believer -- but totally fallacious logically.

Another analogy that you used is the acceptance of eyewitness testimony in a court of law. Legal courts do accept eyewitness testimony. They also reject it. Part of the process is to determine the level of credibility of that testimony. If Mr. Smith claims he witnessed the murder of the victim -- we listen. Then he claims that the victim was raised from the dead, and before that he walked on water, healed the sick magically, turned water into wine, etc. We laugh him out of the courtroom because the guy is obviously off his rocker. His credibility is shot.